just got my comment deleted on the Guardian website

[dangermouseisace]

silly students protesting against Jenni Murray.

All I did was point out, when someone asked how our sex was being erased, that trans women offend with similar patterns to men, and concerns about recent trans women rapists, also violent trans women being housed in female prisons. I said that if these crimes are recorded as female it reduces the argument for separate safe spaces for women.

I also said about sports, and trans women being accepted onto female teams, and funnily enough being better than actual women, and advised people look up the Iran womens football team.

What did I do that was so wrong???

GardenGeek

I think the party line over the race versus sex analogy is the reiteration of pink brain/blue brain.

Someone blacking up has obviously been born white. And at no point in their lives could they have experienced the world as anything other than being white.

That transactivists will have it that they have a pink brain. And therefore viewed the world through female eyes since they were born.

They sidestep the fact that no one else saw them as female tho. And therefore they were treated like the males they are.

I've seen them say that because they were really women internally, they didn't notice any male privilege, but only observed the misogyny reserved for women and somehow absorbed it themselves...

And then the argument gets spectacularly derailed with cries of but it was horrible being misgendered from birth, you don't know how difficult it is been, blah blah blah.

Talking

I see what you are saying now. And yes I totally agree. Plugging way will have its results in the end.

Great post, WhereyouLeftIt

Yours too, Datun

Even if there was unequivocal proof that there are two different types of brain (and I'll never believe there would be) it still wouldn't make any difference.

Our sexed bodies are what dictates our experience.

Is our collective prudishness at saying / seeing / hearing the word "sex" to blame for the ease with which we have moved from transexual to transgender?

I think it may well be, Olenna. It's partly how it slipped under my radar. All those forms asking for your gender - 'tick male or female'. I accepted the term gender, even though I knew male and female were not genders but sexes. I metaphorically shrugged my shoulders at their prissiness. But I didn't question it.

Just looked at the Guardian thread and stumbled across this comment right at the top:
'Women who cannot accept transwomen as real women, are not real women.'
OH FUCK OFF!!!!

Sorry. Needed to get that off my chest.

LumelaMme, on the plus side, only 3 people have upticked that comment, whilst 80 people have upticked the response to it - "Stupidest statement on this topic so far -- against stiff competition."

Vanilla is right - it's the attitudes of posters that make the feminist board a place to avoid, unortunately.

Anyone that cries out that there's no transphobia on MN should just have a look at feminist chat. Nearly every single thread started is about transgender, and from the onset it's hostile. Posters are hysterical about trans people when there are serious issues that affect all women - the biggest I can think of are violence, and poverty and austerity (87% of austerity cuts hit women and 80% of women are mothers. That's something to be up in arms about, not gender neutral toilets). Why aren't the majority of threads here about the women that are relying on foodbanks to feed their kids or women seeking asylum who are destitute and being disbelieved by the home office who send them back to countries where they have been raped and seen family members killed in front of them? Southern trains getting rid of guards on trains, putting people's safety at risk? Underground stations cutting ticket offices and staff - how many women (and men) feel as safe as they did a few years ago travelling alone?

And the one time someone disagrees with the trans hysterics they are patronised or spoken to like a piece of shit (eg 'stop fucking lying to us' 'that's bollocks' [real lack of debating skills with that one], 'grass' are just a few from this thread.)

That's probably why these threads are full of people that agree with each other and clap each other on the back for their 'excellent' posts. Whenever someone (in this case Vanilla) has a different view on transgender they are pounced on aggressively, belittled and patronised and then accused of flouncing when they've had enough of banging their head against a brick wall. I'm sure you all think you're great. What you write and how you write it does not make great reading.

Making facts up doesn't make great reading either. As a radical feminist, I think the erasure of women means we can't talk about any of that other stuff.

Violence is a massive problem as is poverty, housing, the pay gap and female circumcision. But you cannot talk about any of that stuff in most lib fen spaces because someone will pipe up with 'yeah, but it's even worse for transwomen'. Every. Single. Time.

I look forward to contributing on the threads you start about all of the problems we should be talking about, holdback

Why aren't the majority of threads here about.......

Interesting question. And deserves some serious thought on your part.

But the way you ask resembles that thing where any feminist stand on any particular issue that any feminist takes at any time will inevitably be met with one or more people happily wading in to tell them they should be focusing on different issues instead. Why do you think people do that HoldBackTheRain?

I did start several posts about those issues under my old username (whuch was mycat). Funnily enough they didnt get much response which was a shame and taught me that i'm clearly not a mumsnet feminist. Oh and the italics in 'should' and 'serious thought on your part' demonstrate my point about patronising comments. It doesnt matter what anyone who is not hostile to trans writes it will always be met with responses like these. Anyway am out now so cant reply further (before any flouncing accusations appear)

But genuinley, all the trans hate here is doing no one any good. You'll all end up with high blood pressure, or spontaneously combusting.

But if we sit back and allow the definition of "woman" to become eroded to the extent that we can no longer talk about issues pertaining to natal women (FGM, breast cancer, birth, etc.) all the other problems become purely academic.

And the one time someone disagrees with the trans hysterics they are patronised or spoken to like a piece of shit (eg 'stop fucking lying to us' 'that's bollocks' [real lack of debating skills with that one], 'grass' are just a few from this thread.)

Hysteria? Hysterical? What a stupid claim. It's something typically said to women by men to shut them up.

there were no italics in 'should' and 'serious thought on your part' in my post - if that's what you are referring to

There are times in a debate when you have to put finer feelings aside, and call a bollocks a bollocks. It's as simple as that.

Firstly not addressing the OP, then telling us what to talk about, saying we are patronising and hysterical women who 'speak to people like shit', and all in just two posts?

Are you trying to break some sort of derailing record? 😂

Anyway HoldBack - I am totally serious. Putting all knee-jerk judgement/distaste about the kind of threads that currently draw more discussion on MN to one side, why do you think it is such a big issue in Feminism Chat?

Think about the wider context.
Currently people are being no-platformed and hounded if they say a word against transgenderism. MN is one of the few places people can speak freely.
Right now, in this time, TRAs are trying to change laws, which can 1) harm and sterilise children, 2) impinge on women's rights - so this issue is highly pertinent right now.
There are a lot of people who are sick of being silenced and forced to go along with blatant lies in the name of political correctness or be ousted from their feminist groups, face employment tribunals, etc. It is brainwashing and creating a climate of fear.

In this wider context, can you see why it might be the case that this topic is popular here?

that's bollocks' [real lack of debating skills with that one]

I'm not interested in debating lies. I think people get caught up in the details of the lies instead of addressing the actual lying. Which is what liars want.

Oh and the italics in 'should' and 'serious thought on your part' demonstrate my point about patronising comments.

Because your posts aren't patronising at all. I'm sure you and your flouncing friends are patting yourselves on the back just as much as you say we do. Engage. Or don't bother. But you can't force people not to talk about what they want to, or talk about what you want to.

Im not interested in debating lies. I think people get caught up in the details of the lies instead of addressing the actual lying. Which is what liars want.

I totally agree. I've stopped paying lip service to it as an idea in most discussions. I am repeating that TW are male to counteract the mindless "transwomen are women" chant. This is quite satisfying, it feels quite liberating and a release. I no longer feel silenced or gaslighted.

Hold apparently has trans on the brain, because there's been threads on pretty much everything she's raised in the last few days...

I suppose many of them are quite quick, because what is there to discuss about the idea of schools having a stack of tampons/towels for girls that can't afford them - all in favour say aye, we do, and thread is over.

As to hysteria, and having been accused of having a hissy fit the other day, it certainly seems these stereotypes are all alive and well. Personally I was calm and reasonable throughout, although there was the occasional snort of laughter, as their often is (despite it being a board of hairy, humourless feminists)

that's bollocks' [real lack of debating skills with that one]

I'm not interested in debating lies. I think people get caught up in the details of the lies instead of addressing the actual lying. Which is what liars want

This is such a well made point.