Can I ask a question about toilets?

[Katnisnevergreen]

This is a genuine question I've been mulling over for a while. I understand that people dislike the proposals about gender identity and the impact that this will have on female spaces. I understand why some women don't like the idea of sharing a public toilet with a man presenting as a woman for whatever reason. What I am curious about is female to make transgender people, and how women feel about these individuals using a female bathroom. Not on a biological level as i appreciate that they were born female and therefore are the same as us. But what about those women transitioning to male or living as male who have taken hormones to make them look male?
With the arguments against transgender people using their chosen gender rather than their biological sex, how would you feel as a woman sharing a toilet with someone who at least on the surface, looks male?
This is genuinely not a goading or troll post, I am interested to hear what people have to say and how they feel about it.

Don't care. I see the "trans men in women's bathroom" meme as manipulative in the extreme. I assume most trans men who pass will be using the men's.
My issue is with males in spaces with vulnerable women, purely on the basis they self identify as a woman, whatever the heck that means. I want to be able to retain the right to ask some male pervert to leave a woman's space if he is making me uncomfortable without running the risk of me being arrested for a hate crime.
Trans men are female so they are welcome in women's spaces.

But my question is, how will you know? How can you, at a glance, tell of a person is male, or transgender?

Read my post. If they are behaving entirely normally I wouldn't give them a second look regardless. I will be able tell they are male if they are acting like a perv.
Don't come back acting like lesbians and trans men also perv on women in the same way, it's homophobic bullshit.

Are you ducking kidding me? Have you just implied I'm homophobic??? What is wrong with you. I genuinely cannot believe that you have just put those words into my post.
I asked a genuine question which I haven't had a good answer to.

If you see a make looking person in the ladies loo, how would you react?
If, as people keep saying, people should use the toilets of their biological sex, what does that mean for transgender males? Do you really think that because they can 'pass' (what a hideous term in itself) that you would change their minds. Does that work both ways?

Transmen are women. Therefore welcome in women's spaces. If they want to use men's spaces, that's up to them and whether the men mind. Of course, you never hear about men minding, because a woman in their space is not the slightest bit threatening to them. Either intrinsically or perceptually.

I'm sure if men had an issue with it, we would hear all about it. But we don't.

And it's not about passing, or not passing. If the protocols are that women use women's toilets and men use the men's, any time you saw someone looking a little masculine, your first default would be they are a masculine woman.

The only reason to question it now is because it is up for question.

Have you just implied I'm homophobic?
No, just preempting the common follow up about why aren't I concerned about lesbians in women's spaces because women attack people too. I apologise if that's not what you were going to say. Have had too many of these conversations.
I don't really know what you are talking about when you say trying to change people's minds. I think I've been quite clear

I dont care if Trans people use the bathroom. I've used the mens bathroom when the queue has been too long and its never been a problem.

I do care if self identity legislation allows male predators access to women only spaces.
I do care when women are told they are being oppressive for not wanting to share a women only space with someone with a penis.

Maybe I'm odd, but I don't mind genuine trans women in female toilets, who are going through the process of transitioning under medical supervision. It would be better if they could use male loos but we are where we are. What I am more nervous about is men with criminal intent being able to 'self identify' as women and abusing the system for their own agenda. It would be a danger to all women and trans women. I wouldn't have a problem with trans man in female toilets.

If you think about what makes you vulnerable in the loo if a man is there and what we'd most be worried about i.e. Rape (your knickers are round your ankles after all!) a trans man isn't going to be doing that due to the lack of functioning penis. Trans men more follow female heights/frames (hips/hands etc) etc so even if they 'pass', if they were in a female loo you could see that they could be female.

In my view it's not about the trans woman, it's all the men who will have access to female space by the phrase "I identify as a woman".

The situation could have changed, but I understood the vast majority of trans people are male to female, so the "trans men in female or male bathroom" is not much of an issue, mainly because there's not all that many of them.

I don't care about transwomen or transmen going to the Ladies. I just care about the sports and crime statistics issues.

Trans men rarely pass as male but if they do, they can use the men's easily. Most trans men are clearly female so I wouldn't bat an eyelid at them using the women's loos even if they were wearing boots and a plaid shirt.
Trans women pass as female even more rarely so unless they can genuinely not be distinguished from a woman then they can use the men's or the disabled loos.

I've seen this issue discussed by gender non-conforming lesbians - not transmen - and they said that if a woman looks somewhat askance at them they usually make some remark and the other woman relaxes as soon as they hear their female voice.

I'm not scared of other women regardless of their appearance.

Trans women can't use men's loos because statistically the change they would be raped or attacked there is very very high. Massively higher than the chance of a transwoman raping a ciswoman in a ladies loo which is almost unheard of

Where is your evidence for that?

www.facebook.com/groups/1722756661380462/

Plenty of evidence of trans women harming women and girls in public toilets and elsewhere

It isn't perfect but I think how things are now is best. Generally speaking, men use the men's and women use the women's, but it isn't illegal for a man to go into the women's and vice versa. So currently, if a transman who looked male went into the men's, nobody would question it. If a transwoman who looked female went into the women's nobody would question it. If a man, in a dress or not, came into the women's and acted suspiciously, I'd have the option of complaining or saying "this is the ladies".

As is the idea that the world is full of men just desperate to become trans (give up all their male privilege and put themselves at constant risk of attack and harassment) just purely so they can walk into a ladies loo when there's basically nothing stopping them from doing that anyway as a bloke.

You're missing the point. If self-declaration is the only requirement then any man could walk into any female-only space, for whatever reasons he chooses, and declare he identifies as a woman at that time. This is not just about toilets either.

Can I make it very clear, I not advocating trangsenger men using men's rooms only. It is just that every time the debate comes up, some posters seem to say they would feel uncomfortable going to the loo knowing a man were there. Now, if at first glance the person looks male, I was wondering how people would react. For example if I were transgender, taking hormones but pre surgery, I may need to use the ladies to change a tampon/pad. Would people challenge me?

I think taking hormones stops their periods.

FFS carolchurchill if you actually read what we've said, we're worried about MEN who will take advantage of the imminent self identifying policy. Men who look like men, even dress as men will be allowed in female bathrooms if they 'identify' as female and we won't be able to question them for fear of hate crime. So they'd be able to attack trans women as well as biological women.

The problem is with much of the pro trans argument is that it becomes all about the trans woman and how at risk she is. I don't know where your stats are from- I assume that's a global number as too high for U.K./us. If we're talking about women, one of the reasons so Many Indian Bihar women are raped and murdered is due to lack of toilets. They go off to do their business and get attacked. By men.

And there are examples of men and trans women using loos for attacks/voyeurism. We're saying that these things already happen, let's not make it worse by letting every person in without question. Stop ignoring the fact that actual biological women are vulnerable.

There's a blog post on Gendertrender about transmen using women's facilities because they're much safer. I'm having problems putting links in posts because of my new phone, but maybe someone else could find it. Transmen + bathrooms should find it .

Given that I've heard people joking about transmen looking like Hobbits because of their shape, height and beards, I'd guess a small transman would find the gents pretty frightening.

Please don't use "cis", Caryl. It's offensive, particularly to feminists.

pretty awful things suggested here in the past about mandatory gender checks and gender ID cards. I have never seen that on here and I've been posting a long time.

As far as physical safety goes, anyone being a "pervert" or engaging in any kind of illegal or anti social behaviour is subject to the same rules and laws.
Social norms do more to dissuade criminals than laws and laws only work after the fact. At the moment men know they are likely to be challenged if they try to come into women's spaces to be voyeuristic/flash etc and this dissuades them from doing it. In future they can just use the magic words "I am a woman" and unless an offence can be proven we just have to put up with them being there.
katnis do you support the idea of unisex toilets (same set up as now but open to all) /changing rooms/hospital wards/rape crisis centres/prisons/DV refuges? If not, why not?

The case of the transman (can't remember the name) has been kicked back down to the appeals court by the Supreme court. I have always been bemused that the first case testing this was for a transman, not a transwoman. I think, (with no evidence mainly because I have not looked), that to test the case for a transman will avoid the inevitable accusations of voyeurism etc. But if the transman had once, there is legal precedent etc and there will be an avalanche of transwomen rights campaigns

It takes a great deal of money to take a case to this far, and I wonder who has been funding it