Can I ask a question about toilets?

[Katnisnevergreen]

This is a genuine question I've been mulling over for a while. I understand that people dislike the proposals about gender identity and the impact that this will have on female spaces. I understand why some women don't like the idea of sharing a public toilet with a man presenting as a woman for whatever reason. What I am curious about is female to make transgender people, and how women feel about these individuals using a female bathroom. Not on a biological level as i appreciate that they were born female and therefore are the same as us. But what about those women transitioning to male or living as male who have taken hormones to make them look male?
With the arguments against transgender people using their chosen gender rather than their biological sex, how would you feel as a woman sharing a toilet with someone who at least on the surface, looks male?
This is genuinely not a goading or troll post, I am interested to hear what people have to say and how they feel about it.

ego what sort of toilet arrangements would keep you safe and also keep women safe?

Clue: it's not letting anybody who says they identify as a woman into women's toilets. You've said elsewhere you disagree with self-identification so I know you get this.

What's your solution?

It's True, there is no law about loos but if a man is in the females we can tell them to get the fuck out at present. Or they might get barred from certain places e.g. Pubs/ clubs. And yes, men will go in anyway if they want to rape- they have done that, but there are less chances if we have segregated loos- most of the time someone will notice a person who shouldn't be going into a certain place and know they are likely up to no good. I certainly wouldn't go into a ladies loo if I saw a man going in there before me.

Women in this country DO get attacked/raped in toilets. Let's not make this a more frequent occurrence by opening the doors to every Tom Dick and Harry. Mixed gender toilets are not safe for females.

NotCarylChurchill wrote - "trans murder rates are sky high (on average a trans person is murdered every three days)."

I don't know what area your statistic, which equates to about 122 murders per year, is for, but here are statistics for the worldwide annual average number of people who are murdered:

• transgender : 250 murdered per year (about 80% occurring in Latin America)
• not transgender : 500,000 murdered per year

Self ID legislation is harmful because it means women cant challenge any male in the bathroom.

that gives power to male predators. They know they cannot be challenged. It empowers them.

Stop empowering male predators. We need to be able to challenge them based on their behaviour.
We dont challenge men who want to accompany their child, change a nappy, or have a pee. We dont need to. they are not a threat.

There is no need for any change in legislation.
Self identity legislation only empowers male predators.

There are transwomen who get attacked though

So what? They're not being attacked anywhere near the amount of women are. On average two women per WEEK are killed in the uk and many more seriously injured by men. I have zero interest in being concerned about men's safety in the men's toilets. It's a male issue , it's not for women to resolve and absolutely no reason to invade womens spaces.

I absolutely believe this is nothing to do with safety and everything to do with getting validation from non consenting women.

Yet people frequently say that there is not 1 case of a transwoman being attacked in a male bathroom.
Which is true because transwomen rarely use male bathrooms if they think they are likely to be attacked

I've not ever come across a man in the women's bathrooms. I don't like that I'm meant to believe that men have been doing this for ages because they haven't. And no, the majority of them do NOT look like women.

The fact there's been no attacks show its perfectly safe.

YY DJbaggysmalls

I absolutely believe this is nothing to do with safety and everything to do with getting validation from non consenting women.

Absolutely. And for some, deliberately trampling over women's boundaries is a way of expressing their clearly held by misogyny and contempt for us. The "safety" argument is total bullshit. What about our privacy and dignity? Men need to sort out their own issues.

But this has been turned around. I have asked about biological women who are presenting as men (aka transgender males) using their biologically current toilet. Not transgender women (biologically male) using the ladies toilets.
I don't understand how 'passing' is relevant. Also, if, as posters keep saying across the trans threads, biology is unchangable, then transgender males should be using the ladies and there fore making women uncomfortable.

It's the opposite of trampling over women's rights, because biologically they are women.

Yeah, and people have answered that lots of times
Trans men are still female. Even with short hair and men's boots they are still female. They are still easy to identify as female, so are welcome to use the female toilets. The fact that they 'present as men' (wear men's clothes and have short hair?) doesn't mean they are not female.
If they are not identifiable as female then they can use the men's and nobody will be any the wiser as long as they use a cubicle.

"Transwomen can't use men's loos because statistically the change they would be raped or attacked there is very very high."

"Very very high", you say. As in... 80%? 90%?

WHERE are all these hundreds and thousands of transwomen who are raped in the male toilets? I would like to see those statistics.

"biological women who are presenting as men (aka transgender males)"

"Transgender male"?

Male and Female are sex, not gender.

One can be transgender ("feel like a woman", want to dress up as a woman etc), but not trans-sex. It is not possible to actually change one's sex. All that is possible is to take artificial cross-sex hormones to force your body to develop the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex (breasts, fat distributions, etc) and have surgery to approximate the appearance of the opposite sex. It is not possible to actually become the opposite sex.

In other words, a woman who wants to look like a man is not a "transgender male", or a male of any kind.

Where is the evidence that trans males are in danger of actual violence (misgendering doesnt count ffs) from other people (self harm doesnt count either!) in the UK at all?

All that is possible is to take artificial cross-sex hormones to force your body to develop the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex (breasts, fat distributions, etc) and have surgery to approximate the appearance of the opposite sex. It is not possible to actually become the opposite sex.

Thank you for some clarity. It's stating the obvious but is in danger of being forgotten.

The OP is trying to do a gotcha! with transmen and her entirely innocent and not-agenda-driven-at-all questions. Tedious.

how would you feel as a woman sharing a toilet with someone who at least on the surface, looks male?

the question has not been turned around, you are just ignoring the answers you dont like.
As I stated on the first page, I have used the mens bathroom.

As a woman using the bathroom, I expect to be int he womens bathroom. If the sex of the person standing next to me is ambiguous, I might challenge them. 'Are you in the right bathroom? This is the womens'.
If we are not permitted to ask the sex of the person standing next to us,. the 'question' is ludicrous.

Thats not us turning the question around. Its trans people creating ridiculous confusion by banning the question 'what sex are you?' and calling it hate speech.

From the OP - "how would you feel as a woman sharing a toilet with someone who at least on the surface, looks male? "
I would feel vulnerable. And that sense of vulnerability would cause me to look very, very carefully at the apparent male. Height, jawline, size of hands and feet, hip width, waist. Sounds a lot, but it would probably take less than a second. If I recognised them as female, I might relax. If I considered they might actually be male, I'd tell them to get the fuck out of my toilets. And mean it.

Thanks for finding the link, Datun. I've got to find it how to paste links on my new phone. Sorry I upgraded now.

This toxic construction of mens' toilets as somewhere which will inevitably lead to assault, rape, and violence toward anyone who's not obviously a man is a part of the entrenchment of gender stereotyping which underpins the whole trans activist argument.

Problem 1: If men's toilets are so full of rape and violence, why isn't that everyone's first priority? Why is the answer to the apparently inevitable raping and violence by men that this should carry on in its own space, and people who don't like it can just come in the nice safe ladies loos?

Problem 2: If it's such a dead fucking cert that men rape people they don't see as men, why are the concerns many women have about letting people with penises in their toilets dismissed out of hand? ('all the transwomen I know are lovely, you should talk to more transwormen and you will see what a lovely gentle species they are' etc).

It's fucking nonsensical.

The OP is trying to do a gotcha! with transmen and her entirely innocent and not-agenda-driven-at-all questions. Tedious

It really is. And it shows just how desperate these men are to get into our spaces. The whole "we're one of the girls and we're scared of the men" thing is horribly manipulative. Why would men ,and they ARE men, be scared of other men?

And if they are scared, why aren't they scared everywhere? Why aren't we hearing about them being afraid to walk home or afraid to use public transport? Do women only get attacked in bathrooms? How utterly convenient that they're only scared in changing rooms and bathrooms. The more I hear them whinging and making up lies the more convinced I am that there are other reasons they want to get into our spaces.

It's a blatant Trojan horse.

Here is what's actually happening in the real world - at my university, the male toilets have been left alone and the ladies have become 'anyone' toilets. So I have no right to confront anyone at all who might be in there - transwomen or males. No need for a man to even identify as a woman, any man can use these toilets. I no longer feel safe and the toilets stink of piss. I can go out of my way to go 5 floors down from my floor to use the one remaining ladies toilets by the entrance however, so hey, mustn't grumble

Transwomen can't use men's loos because statistically the change they would be raped or attacked there is very very high.

Jesus Christ - mens loos sound like something from Mad Max - there was me thinking that it was the urinals and pee on the seats that was the main problem... Definitely best that we keep men out of the women's toilets then if they're that terrible - and since we have no firm way of determining which men are transwomen, that makes it all the more critical that transwomen stay out of women's toilets - since self-determination literally opens the door to any violent male who wants to leave their thunderdome toilets...

It's ridiculous. That's why IMO framing it as a safety issue is wrong. The fact that certain transwomen want to trample over the privacy, dignity and boundaries of women is a red flag for me, I'm afraid.

And yet, Choco, if we say that we get querulous demands about whether we really, honestly think that men are going to go to the bother of getting into women's toilets just purely to rape us, or else a wilful misunderstanding cf. Jack Monroe - 'how dare you say that trans people are all rapists'.

So in a nutshell - men are so awful that they will rape and hit anyone, on sight, who doesn't look like their idea of a man - when they are in the safe space of the men's loos. However, they literally cannot be arsed to go to any bother to rape anyone outside the men's loos. They just wouldn't.