Can I ask a question about toilets?

[Katnisnevergreen]

This is a genuine question I've been mulling over for a while. I understand that people dislike the proposals about gender identity and the impact that this will have on female spaces. I understand why some women don't like the idea of sharing a public toilet with a man presenting as a woman for whatever reason. What I am curious about is female to make transgender people, and how women feel about these individuals using a female bathroom. Not on a biological level as i appreciate that they were born female and therefore are the same as us. But what about those women transitioning to male or living as male who have taken hormones to make them look male?
With the arguments against transgender people using their chosen gender rather than their biological sex, how would you feel as a woman sharing a toilet with someone who at least on the surface, looks male?
This is genuinely not a goading or troll post, I am interested to hear what people have to say and how they feel about it.

It is insane Seek.

Especially when you read things about the men that have planted cameras, or drilled through ceilings, or invented bloody fake arms or special shoes just to perve on women. Men as a class seem to have infinite time and resources to invade our spaces, so the idea that saying 'I'm a woman' or bunging on a wig/dress would be too much effort is truely ridiculous.

Satishouse

That sounds awful, and it really pisses me off.

Women aren't even being asked. It's just a bloody assumption that they will roll over.

Personally, it is this sweeping, wholesale disregard for women's opinion that angers me, almost more than the actuality of sharing spaces.

When the American bathroom debate first hit my radar, I wasn't even aware it had anything to do with transgenderism. My initial reaction was, no, fuck off why should we?!

And, I agree, it's not all about male violence, although that is obviously a large consideration. It's about the frightening inability to say no, I don't want this and then being constantly forced to argue and justify. When it should just be a no.

The massive elephant in the room to me is that women's opinion really, really doesn't count. It's like people are looking at women and are truly incapable of seeing them as having any kind of worth as separate entities.

Choc - men don't even need to do this though. At my uni, the women's toilets have become the "anyone' toilets - you dont need to put a skirt on to go in. A man dressed as a man who identifies as a man is welcome to go in. We are being exposed to ALL men in what should be women only spaces just to accommodate trans people

This is how it is going now - women's toilets are becoming 'anyone' toilets. It is becoming common in our universities

Satis - yes, and of course the really ridiculous thing about that is that the mens is the one that has both the required facilities, so would be a better choice to open to everyone.

And apparently it's a hotbed of violence, so could probably do with a bit of light and traffic too.

It's about the frightening inability to say no, I don't want this and then being constantly forced to argue and justify.
And threatened with censorship, banning, shunning, loss of employment, and of course, outright physical and sexual violence.

Trans identifying males are as violent as non trans identifying males, judging by the available research, by their own social media accounts, and by the steady stream of criminal acts of violence they commit. Is there a week that goes by where there arent at least one or two new cases of this? And they is just the cases we hear about. With so many media outlets refusing to name males as males or acknowledge male violence, isn't it likely there are more we dont know about?

Choc - exactly, why don't the change the men's toilets into the 'anyones' toilets. Why is it always women that get thrown under the bus

I've just posted this on another thread, but I'm leaving it here too.

Transwoman (aka straight man) being filmed by his girlfriend.

I can't even form a coherent sentence explaining how this makes me feel.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=MORAczk_m9w

I'm really sick of men coming on here telling us how dangerous the male toilets are, how men are aggressive and will rape anyone given the chance. Yet we know our male relatives and sons use the men's bathrooms without being raped or attacked.

My husband's pretty pissed off with the trans story that men are this terrifying presence in the men's toilets.

Datun, that video. I genuinely think he's mentally unwell.

RogueBiscuit

I completely agree.

I can't work out if the ideology just attracts nutters, or whether the nutters are just the ones who post.

Either way, I have yet to see a clip that doesn't make me think there is an MH issue involved.

I invoke Miranda Yardley a lot, but that is because she is the only wholly sensible transwoman I have come across.

I am more than happy to be proved wrong.

Because women are being erased, Satishouse. We have obviously got too uppity for our own good, or something

Never mind transmen, I don't think I want to subject DS to the apparent hellhole of the men's toilets...

Datun - I love the last comment left on that video: "This is what enabled lunacy looks like"

'Enabled lunacy' I love it. That is it in a nut shell

What is that cat saying at the end? 'That's all bollocks mate, I'm making more sense than you and I'm a fucking CAT!'

Ironic that he keeps saying 'she wants attention! She wants attention'. Pot. Kettle.

Op, what are your thoughts on this issue?

Ironic that he keeps saying 'she wants attention! She wants attention'. Pot. Kettle.

Yes, that wasn't lost on me! Projection much?

One of the reasons I like Magdelen Berns' videos so much is because she just bloody gets on with it and starts talking.

As soon as someone starts to naval gaze, look at something off camera, raises eyebrows and sighs, or talks to 'fascinating' pets/people you can't see, my patience instantly disappears.

Even those who are quite speechless with outrage and splutter, get on my nerves.

You're making a bloody video, get a script in front of you for God's sake.

Only made it half-way through the video...

So he's fine with his body, he didn't realise he had a gender identity until recently (so he didn't grow up trans), and he's decided that it's 'woman' because previously he didn't realise gender exists, but now he does. Oh, and he's too sensitive to be mis-gendered, despite beard and dressing in an entirely masculine gender-conforming manner

Right. Well..

Not much to say there. Crack on, I think that exactly what's needed to bring this out in the open as the woman bullying nonsense it is.

Datun - they are multi-tasking because it's what women do, obv

That video .Did you see the other video he made saying he's been diagnosed with schizophrenia? Very strange.

QuentinSummers

I saw the title, but couldn't be arsed to watch the video. It's no surprise, to be honest.

I'm really sick of men coming on here telling us how dangerous the male toilets are, how men are aggressive and will rape anyone given the chance. Yet we know our male relatives and sons use the men's bathrooms without being raped or attacked.

You know, I think it is the male toilets that beat up and rape males. I mean, when males want access to the women's toilets, we are told they are harmless little angels, every one of them.

So clearly, the pissoirs are sentient and turn into humanoid creatures when the moon is full and the wolfsbane blooms, and beat up and rape gender-non-conforming men. But like many supernatural monsters, they cannot ever leave the men's loo.

That is the only explanation that makes sense of those two claims that men in the men's loo are dangerous but men in the women's loo are harmless.
It must be the men's toilets that are the monsters!

None of the transactivist logic stands up to any scrutiny. People are just gullible, thoughtless virtue signallers. I despair.

But when women say that in general they are wary of men, they get told NAMALT and it's not fair and don't make sweeping judgements and each and every one should get a fair chance to prove they are not horrible rapists.

So women are being told this about anyone coming into their spaces, when they compain.

But when TW and their supporters say that OBVIOUSLY they need to come in with the women because it's so dangerous with the men, everyone agrees.

Why is this?

Is it because women's statements about their life experiences and their fears are seen as hysterical, over-reaction, the work of fevered imaginations and lies?

While when people who everyone knows are men say they are fearful, this is recognised as truth and accommodations must be made?

Is it because it's considered part of women's job - their place - a thing that they simply have to put up with, putting up with all sorts of creepy and awful behaviour from men, and victim blamed when it is really bad?

While for a man to get this from another man is seen as definitely wrong?

Link the other day with a teen "transgirl" going in the boys toilets and getting beaten up by some adult men who were for some reason hanging out in the school toilets, this was presented as being the fault of teenage girls. So, girls HAVE to accept males in their spaces, and if they don't and something happens, as per usual it is NOT the fault of the men who do the actual violence, but the fault of women because women are just awful and need to be blamed for everything.

It's all very boring.

Bogs thing. TW who pass have used them for years with no probs. TW who didn't pass got put up with if they were trying to look female and minding their own business (IME). Maybe a few funny looks. MEN who were in the ladies got short shrift and you could challenge them, tell the bouncer / shop / whatever. In clubs you could hide from persistent men, get away from them and send someone out to have a look for you to check they'd gone.

The idea now is you can't do anything until they commit an actual crime. Great! Creepy men have a host of things in their armoury that are intimidating / scary / weird / unsettling / pervy but not actually illegal. And now there's no escape! They can just follow you in.

I went to a big concert with my dad recently. The crowd was mainly female and the toilets ratio at the arena wasn't set up for this so women just used either as they pleased. My dad obviously didn't feel in danger, but was a bit uncomfortable with a bunch of women in there. And that's fair enough isn't it? I've often looked at the lack of a queue for the gents and thought about nipping in, but didn't want to make the men feel uncomfortable. I wasn't afraid of coming to harm in there, I just didn't want to make them feel like their privacy was being invaded in their sex segregated space.