Can I ask a question about toilets?

[Katnisnevergreen]

This is a genuine question I've been mulling over for a while. I understand that people dislike the proposals about gender identity and the impact that this will have on female spaces. I understand why some women don't like the idea of sharing a public toilet with a man presenting as a woman for whatever reason. What I am curious about is female to make transgender people, and how women feel about these individuals using a female bathroom. Not on a biological level as i appreciate that they were born female and therefore are the same as us. But what about those women transitioning to male or living as male who have taken hormones to make them look male?
With the arguments against transgender people using their chosen gender rather than their biological sex, how would you feel as a woman sharing a toilet with someone who at least on the surface, looks male?
This is genuinely not a goading or troll post, I am interested to hear what people have to say and how they feel about it.

I disagree to some extent, I think that men do in fact know what men are like and what they (as a class) do. I think that is why men used to make "backs to the wall, boys" jokes* if there was a gay man in the room

• For clarity, I don't think these homophobic comments are funny or acceptable at all - but I recall them being said fairly often and openly, really not that long ago

I beg your pardon?

Stupid little troll, just report.

Thanks MNHQ, very quick action!

www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2017/03/supreme-incoherence-transgender-ideology-and-the-end-of-law

It's about the Gavin Grimm transman Title X case in the US, but the general analysis is spot on. Very much worth a read.

And yes, it is a religious site. But the argument is a legal one.

Actually, it's worse than women will not be allowed to challenge a man in female-only spaces, only to try to do something after the fact if an abuse occurs. It's that women who have already been the victim of male violence are being silenced and side-lined when they try to explain why having men in female-only spaces is so problematic

Interestingly on the continent they have different ideas sometimes - some countries do naked mixed sauna etc - and so I wonder how they deal with the creepy men issue.

I suppose they deal with it by the mixed sauna being a kind of public space - there are also non-creepy men there, and they are there at the same time as the women of their family because it is a social thing that families and friends do together.

The creep who goes to a mixed sex naked sauna or nude bathing beach won't know whether the men there are related to the women there - he cannot count on the men siding with him if he molests women. He has both the risk that there could be decent men in there who will kick him out because of his creepyness, and the risk of encountering a jealous husband who will punch him in the face for leering at his wife.
Those factors work in combination; too - even if no men notice his molesting a young girl, women might, and those women will have men there who are on their side.

Showering and going to the toilet, on the other hand, are not social activities, so a creepy man in an unisex facility doesn't face a risk of physical violence; other men might ask him what he's doing when he tries to film women inside the cubicles, but are not likely to get very angry over his molesting a woman they don't know.

But the perfect opportunity for a man who wants to prey on women are obviously female spaces where no decent man would ever dream of entering. There, he can use his male muscle mass to threaten and intimidate without any risk of a decent man stepping in to stop him.
And thanks to trans ideology, a woman who wants to tell a creep to get the fuck out of the women's showers cannot (as it was before) count on other women to side with her. She faces the risk of being beaten up by a male while other women stand there and call her transphobic.

For clarity, I don't think these homophobic comments are funny or acceptable at all - but I recall them being said fairly often and openly, really not that long ago

Indeed. And I am always grateful when men tell me just exactly how they think men behave towards the sex they are sexually attracted to.

Makes it easier for me to avoid dangerous men.

A man who does not molest women, and does not socialize with men who molest women, might not know just how common such behaviour is - but the idea that gay men might molest him will, for the same reson, not enter his mind.

Interestingly on the continent they have different ideas sometimes

Slightly unrelated anecdote - I remember 30+ years ago my mum being shocked after going in a ladie's loo in Paris and finding other women naked from the waist up in the general area, doing - well I'm not actually sure, washing maybe?
Certainly made my mum feel uncomfortable :)
Cultural differences definately at play here.

Bet that Parisian ladies' loo also had a fierce elderly woman sat near the door collecting francs and ensuring that nothing untoward was going on, though...

More than likely. It's a vague memory for me, but I still remember my mum's shocked face!

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Your Mum felt uncomfortable being in the room with topless women, but like most men when theres a female in their bathroom, I doubt she felt threatened.

Of course not, that's exactly what I said.

English people are a lot more prudish about being naked in sex-segregated areas than mainland Europeans, it seems.

Which possibly is why the transnonsense gains so much traction in England?

I should hope that in Germany, no one would even consider allowing any bepenised person over the age of six in a women's changing room and shower - Germans usually get naked in those places; it is not normal to use a towel for enhanced privacy (even though some probably do that), so I should hope any suggestion that males should be allowed there would meet with strong opposition.

But then, considering that the US apparently has transparent toilet cubicles and the transnonsense laws still succeeded, perhaps not.