Can I ask a question about toilets?

[Katnisnevergreen]

This is a genuine question I've been mulling over for a while. I understand that people dislike the proposals about gender identity and the impact that this will have on female spaces. I understand why some women don't like the idea of sharing a public toilet with a man presenting as a woman for whatever reason. What I am curious about is female to make transgender people, and how women feel about these individuals using a female bathroom. Not on a biological level as i appreciate that they were born female and therefore are the same as us. But what about those women transitioning to male or living as male who have taken hormones to make them look male?
With the arguments against transgender people using their chosen gender rather than their biological sex, how would you feel as a woman sharing a toilet with someone who at least on the surface, looks male?
This is genuinely not a goading or troll post, I am interested to hear what people have to say and how they feel about it.

My teenage son pointed out the other day that if a woman went into the men's changing room and started stripping off, the blokes would feel awkward and embarrassed, but they wouldn't feel physically threatened.

Whereas if a bloke goes into the Ladies changing and starts getting his kit off, the dynamics are very different. Under those circs it's perfectly reasonable for women to feel threatened, because the bloke is clearly already not bothered about boundaries, so might well carry on to other, more overtly physical violations.

Blokes in a changing room with a woman aren't going to feel physically threatened, whereas women with a bloke in their changing room probably will, with good reason.

The word boundaries is very important. It's something that women, most women, instinctively have.

Men pee in front of each other. From what I have seen, they are happy nakedly sharing a communal hot tub after football match.

And yes, I know they don't all peer at each other's groin, or get handsy. But the vulnerability element just isn't as high for them.

Even the best of men don't realise how important boundaries are to women. They think it's all just based on the realistic chances of rape or attack. It's not. It's an ingrained vulnerability that is constantly present, even behind a curtain in a female changing room. My antenna will automatically turn up a slight notch if I am trying on a swimsuit say, rather than a pair of jeans.

It's always there, but it ratchets up depending on circumstance.

I'm not saying man can't feel vulnerable, they can. But I think for them, it is a reaction to something. Whereas for women it is constant, it's just the degree that changes.

I think a lot of men wouldn't want to undress in front of a woman. Most men I know have said they don't like going to a busy loo where they have to be next to another man at the urinal. Yes, it's just discomfort and not fear of attack, but I think it's a widely experienced feeling to want to not share some things with the opposite sex. Whether that's daft or not, it's deeply ingrained so I think most people would feel uncomfortable changing in a unisex situation.

Men, women regardless of what sex they identify with, if they are acting Pervy it's wrong and I'd tell them to eff off, I don't really understand tbh why there's such a thing about this.

Men, women regardless of what sex they identify with, if they are acting Pervy it's wrong and I'd tell them to eff off, I don't really understand tbh why there's such a thing about this.

It's the definition of the word 'pervy'.

If someone is obviously leering that will be construed as pervy. But a lot of pervy behaviour can go on with no discernible change in the person's behaviour.

There are also a lot of people who for whatever reason wouldn't tell someone off.

I got groped while sat in a theatre when I was a teenager. I should have shouted for him to stop, but I was so shocked I froze. The same happened to me when I was sexually assaulted at a university party. I wasn't even a timid person. I'd jump right in for someone else, but it was so unexpected I didn't know what to do. Now I would tell the man to fuck off, but the last time I did that on public transport everyone looked away like I was making a scene.

"Being pervy" is not illegal.

Not all women and girls have the wherewithall to tell men to fuck off.

When I have told men to fuck off (and even when I have politely asked them to go away) I have sometimes been verbally abused / threatened, not all women and girls are prepared to take that risk.

The idea that girls and vulnerable women should have to stand up to adult men who are up to no good, that responsibility is on the girls and women to "do something about it" is all arse about face. It's an unfair call. And it also leads to the "why didn't she do something" when something really bad happens.

Why is the responsibility for everything on girls and women?

Men feel scared in the gents? The women should have them in with them.
Men get beaten up in prison? The women should have them in with them.
Men perve over schoolgirls in the shopping centre toilets? The girls need to do something about it

& etc and so on

How about MEN take responsibility for some of this stuff for gods sake. Why aren't men telling each other off when they step out of line? Why aren't men campaigning about violence in prisons? Why aren't men saying that 12 year old girls should be protected from predators? Why is it always on US?

& yes some men are saying protect girls from predators but not the ones who see themselves as liberal and lovely, they just want to shut women up who complain.

I imagine plenty of men don't give a fuck either way as it impacts on them not at all.

I think that most men have NO IDEA about the level of perving, street harrassment, groping and all the rest of it we get when we're young.

And when we try to tell them, they don't believe us.

Men pee in front of each other. From what I have seen, they are happy nakedly sharing a communal hot tub after football match.

Men are all different (surprise suprise), just like women.
Although, from school age, boys get used to peeing and being naked in changing rooms with other boys, most of the adult males I know recall with horror those days and would dread being naked in front of other men.
Maybe I only know shy types!
Pretty sure they wouldn't feel threatened though, just extreme discomfort.
Similarly if women (trans or trans men) were to go into their toilets.

I'm surprised at some of the responses on this thread, on other similar threads, people have said if they saw a man in their toilets, they would immediately panic, and wouldn't instantly know if it was a trans man or not. Yet here, people are saying they would know instantly.

Yes agree many men and boys esp teen boys would be mortified having to undress / pee / whatever in front of women or girls.

dey everyone is different I suppose.

I think the thing is that the "unwritten rules" about socially accepted behaviour are being changed.

Before if a woman found a man in the bogs she had a few options, and he was less likely to be there as he had fuck all excuse.

The new plan is women aren't allowed to do anything until they get attacked, and any man who wants can wander in / loiter / follow a woman or girl in as the sort of invisible barrier has been lifted. Before, he had no excuse. Now, he just has to say "oh I'm trans" and on top of that being unchallengeable, the fact of questioning in the first place means that you are a bigot / evil / possibly committing a hate crime and so women will be strongly discouraged from asking / challenging. Plus the obvious problems when women challenge men ie verbal abuse / violence.

TW seem to think that the above scenarios are unlikely, the reason they think that, is because they did not grow up as girls and have lechy men coming on to them when they were in school uniform etc. They don't know what men are like - same as most men don't (and don't believe us when we tell them).

The very fact that most TW do not comprehend why these changes make so many women and girls uncomfortable, shows up in neon lights that they did not have a "female" experience growing up.

And yes you always get one woman saying that nothing like this ever happened to her, but they are rare. I don't know any women who haven't had a creepy man do something - and it's usually when we're young 12-18 type age. Because we are more vulnerable then / less likely to report / know what to do etc.

So I'm in the bogs with my 9yo DD and a man comes in. She says "mum there's a man in here". I now have to say "no dear don't say that it's rude it's probably a trans person just ignore them".

So I teach her that when men are in unexpected places where only women are supposed to be, she should pretend they aren't there and not make a fuss. Excellent.

Actually I wouldn't say "ignore them" my natural phrasing would probably be "Don't worry about it" even better.

Anyone who thinks creepy men won't take advantage of this is either stupid, or a man, IMO.

I'm surprised at some of the responses on this thread, on other similar threads, people have said if they saw a man in their toilets, they would immediately panic, and wouldn't instantly know if it was a trans man or not. Yet here, people are saying they would know instantly.

You may not know if they are trans or not but you generally know they are a man.

In terms of men feeling uncomfortable changing around women. I agree. My point was that their boundaries are different to women's. And they simply fail to understand it. They would get it more, if it happened to them. But they don't understand it in the abstract. Because it doesn't happen to them. Women's boundaries are violated all the time.

I'm surprised at some of the responses on this thread, on other similar threads, people have said if they saw a man in their toilets, they would immediately panic, and wouldn't instantly know if it was a trans man or not. Yet here, people are saying they would know instantly.

This "transman" thing is a big red herring. When a man walks into the women's toilets, he is clearly recognizable by his height and body shape as male, and what the women in there wonder is not whether he's a transman, they wonder whether he identifies as woman and they'll be called transphobic for telling him to get the hell out of there.

Transmen who pass as male wouldn't ruin their passing by using the women's toilets, either. An androgynous looking woman can pass as male exactly as long as men do not think to question her sex. If the bearded, short, broad-hipped person comes out of the women's loo, that'll get the men in the bar thinking. Transmen who pass don't want that.

The answers on other threads may well be different because women are not a hivemind.

I, personally, do not really look at people. The way I recognize transwomen who make an effort to look feminine as male is mainly by their height.
If I see a person of normal female height in the women's loo, I don't pay enough attention to notice anything else, I will just assume they're a woman.

Fully agree with you Queen.
Although you scenario of being in a toilet with your DD when a man comes in reminded me that there are already situations where this happens - in mixed changing rooms at swimming pools.
Of course, these are usually pretty busy, but I get the same discomfort of being partially naked, with children, and some male teenagers can be pretty crude, never mind adult men!

I too think transmen are a red herring. The ones who look like men but want to use the female loos are a tiny minority. They are not erasing women's rights. They are also not fetishists, or predatory men.

If they pass, they can use the men's loos. I don't care about the men's loos. I care about men in the women's.

If there was a hard and fast law that everyone has to use the facilities of their sex, any transmen in the women's toilets would be assumed to be just that. It's only because men want to violate women's boundaries that this is even up for question.

You see mixed changing rooms are a bit different as they are labelled mixed but I get your point - I'm sure lots of people (men and women) aren't that keen.

Interestingly on the continent they have different ideas sometimes - some countries do naked mixed sauna etc - and so I wonder how they deal with the creepy men issue. I think that countries that have that sort of thing have VERY rigid unwritten codes of behaviour and if you step outside them, people are more comfortable with a bit of public beration. I've seen people pubilically challenging litterers, and people smoking, and people crossing the road in the wrong place, and all sorts in austria & germany where they are a bit more relaxed about nudity. There must be something happening to alleviate problems with creepy men.

twitter.com/cwknews/status/846690205302173699

The fantastic Stephanie Davies Arai discussing on local radio (she was also on local TV news last night but I think clip has expired) a landlord asking a definitely non passing TW to use a disabled loo for the comfort of other customers. This person says that the young women are totally onside and supportive (yes, because they've been gaslighted) and they discuss "fluffy bunnies and handbags". Cos that's what women talk about all the time, right?

The presenter is really annoying and they've clearly cherry picked the comments, but even the equally annoying gender prof thinks unisex loos are a reasonable solution. I am fine with that as long as it is third option, and women keep sex segregated spaces.

My main issue with mixed bogs is that men often seem to piss everywhere and when they do a shit it takes 15 years.

I'll admit I also don't like the idea of doing my makeup at work with my male colleagues wandering in and out. Just doesn't feel quite right.

TW don't want mixed bogs though do they.

They want to come into the women's. It's about validation.

If all sex segregated stuff was gone tomorrow (hosp wards, toilets, prisons etc) they would not be happy. How do they then get their validation, how do they "join in" with "women's stuff"?

Gender expert on the radio glosses over that aspect. I'm sure she is perfectly aware of the issues, in spite of all her posturing about "social justice" (not for women) trumping comfort.