Can I ask a question about toilets?

[Katnisnevergreen]

This is a genuine question I've been mulling over for a while. I understand that people dislike the proposals about gender identity and the impact that this will have on female spaces. I understand why some women don't like the idea of sharing a public toilet with a man presenting as a woman for whatever reason. What I am curious about is female to make transgender people, and how women feel about these individuals using a female bathroom. Not on a biological level as i appreciate that they were born female and therefore are the same as us. But what about those women transitioning to male or living as male who have taken hormones to make them look male?
With the arguments against transgender people using their chosen gender rather than their biological sex, how would you feel as a woman sharing a toilet with someone who at least on the surface, looks male?
This is genuinely not a goading or troll post, I am interested to hear what people have to say and how they feel about it.

Also, can I ask about the double standards of appearance? Already on this thread posters have said that transgender women rarely 'pass' but other posters have said they would assume it was a masculine looking woman. Do you not see the irony here?

won not once - bizarre typeo

If you advocate to force transwomen to use men's rooms then you are actively trying to facilitate rape.

So a man dressing as a woman will get raped in a man's bathroom. But a man dressed as a woman will not rape anyone. Where is the logic in that? Male violence, is male violence.

There isn't a single case of a transwoman being attacked in a male bathroom in this country. Not one.

prawn

Is this it?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2016/06/30/manhood-has-limits-for-transmen-who-prefer-womens-facilities/amp/

It's almost always easy to tell what sex a person is. I have no problem with transmen in the women's toilet because they are nearly always clearly female. The very rare transman who passes would probably be using the gents anyway.

I don't know why it's women's job to sort out where everyone goes to the toilet though

I would feel,that the person probably has been to hell and back to get to that point..and I would show them respect for what must of been a difficult decision for them

I believe transwomen are women and that no one should be gender-policed to be allowed to use a loo.

I really do think that people who believe men are women are seriously unstable. And cis is downright offensive.

Transwomen can't use men's loos because statistically the change they would be raped or attacked there is very very high. Massively higher than the chance of a transwoman raping a ciswoman in a ladies loo which is almost unheard of.

If you advocate to force transwomen to use men's rooms then you are actively trying to facilitate rape.

Holy fuck. I've heard it all now. What blatant lies! There's no evidence of men dressed as women being attacked in toilets. None.

Also, can I ask about the double standards of appearance? Already on this thread posters have said that transgender women rarely 'pass' but other posters have said they would assume it was a masculine looking woman. Do you not see the irony here?

What double standard?

• Transwomen rarely pass - i.e. they look male because they are male.

• Transmen look like masculine looking women - i.e. they look female because they are female.

Personally I don't see why there needs to be a male or female loo. I would be happy using communal loos. Around 18 years ago I worked with a lady that had transitioned from a man and shared changing room/toilets. I never saw an issue.

I can see why women may feel uncomfortable with men in the women's toilets with regards to safety, however if a man wanted to go into a women's toilet with the aim to harm/rape then he will regardless of what the sign of the door says.

rogue you should put something round the text when you're quoting otherwise it looks like you wrote that :)

It's not a double standard to say that trans women look like males and trans men look like females. What are you on about? It's fact.

There isn't a single case of a transwoman being attacked in a male bathroom in this country

There are transwomen who get attacked though.
And there is the likelihood that the reason there are no reported cases is because transwomen don't go into male bathrooms.

This means someone will post a picture of a transwoman in a male bathroom and use this to show that it's safe.

The fact that a transwoman has not been attacked does not mean that it's safe for transwomen to use male bathrooms.

Yet people frequently say that there is not 1 case of a transwoman being attacked in a male bathroom.

Which is true because transwomen rarely use male bathrooms if they think they are likely to be attacked. I know the point I made the decision to switch toilet usage.

Usual confirmation bias. People who haven't noticed passing trans people think they have never seen passing trans people. I can guarantee that most of the women who would go bananas about an unpassing trans woman in their toilets would do the same with a passing trans man (and there are lots of them).

It's all very well being idealistic about biology but trans men going into ladies loos would have constant problems from the other loo users who get stressed out by their presence and it would be completely impractical.

The only reason to question it now is because it is up for question.

Exactly.

And most women don't mind the occasional male who is in the women's toilets because he has to change a child's diapers or accompany his daughter, or whatever.

The main problem with the transnonsense is that it makes women afraid to band together against a pervy male, because he could always draw the "But I identify as woman!" card.

Given that I've heard people joking about transmen looking like Hobbits because of their shape, height and beards, I'd guess a small transman would find the gents pretty frightening.

Yeah, and I also guess that it would be pretty easy to recognize them as female. Those photos where they ask whether one would really want them to use the women's bathroom are often without any comparison for height. (And of course, I have no problem with transmen using the men's bathroom. Men might, I don't.)

Well sure ego, that might be right. Although I should imagine there are very many transwomen who do use male bathrooms, because they are not supposed to use the female bathroom without a GRC.

But the one thing one cannot do is say that transwomen get attacked in male bathrooms, and then say but we have no evidence for it.

So a man dressing as a woman will get raped in a man's bathroom. But a man dressed as a woman will not rape anyone. Where is the logic in that? Male violence, is male violence.

Indeed. As of yet, no one of the rabid transwacktivists has been able to explain that.

There are some people who make the case for unisex facilities (which can be justified if one claims that men are not the tiniest bit more likely to rape women in vulnerable situations and secluded spaces than on the street), but I don't think the most vocal transwacktivists want those - it is more the male-pleasing female feminists who come up with this, because it looks like equality.

Although I should imagine there are very many transwomen who do use male bathrooms, because they are not supposed to use the female bathroom without a GRC

I didn't think that was true. There is no law on who is supposed to use the female or male bathrooms, is there?

No ego, there's no law. There never was a law. Until men started to demand one.

From the Gendertrender link on using male bathrooms:

As a transgender man, I am not supposed to admit this. I am supposed to proclaim that I finally “feel at home,” and that I will fight for my right to access them. And I will! But the truth is, I don’t feel safe in them—nor do I prefer them to women’s rooms.

She goes on to suggest that, like Santee High, women should sacrifice hard won female single-sex facilities and open them to men, so that women like her can continue to use them while identifying as male:

It's breathtaking how this bathroom shit utterley ignores women's boundaries, at every level.

A poster on another thread said that gender dysphoria has a strong correlation with narcissism.

Already on this thread posters have said that transgender women rarely 'pass' but other posters have said they would assume it was a masculine looking woman. Do you not see the irony here?

What double standard do you mean here?

It seems you're talking about some posters saying one thing and others, something else. So that's different opinions from different people. But I can't see a double standard anyway.

I agree, please don't use "cis"

This is genuinely not a goading or troll post, I am interested to hear what people have to say and how they feel about it

Based upon subsequent posts e.g. accusations of double standards and can't you see the irony here I think you do have an agenda and it was disingenuous to attempt to position your OP as 'mulling'

I think that it's usually clear what sex someone is and in the rare instance they genuinely pass as the opposite sex there would be no challenge if they used the facilities corresponding to their acquired gender identity. None of this makes any difference to the real issue of intact males imposing on the safety and privacy of women and girls however.

It's all very well being idealistic about biology but trans men going into ladies loos would have constant problems from the other loo users who get stressed out by their presence and it would be completely impractical.

Like several of us have said, transmen can go in the gents if they 'pass'.

If transmen or men have a problem with that, it's up to them to sort out. Come up with practical solutions that don't shit all over women and I'll fight by your elbow. Expect women to sort out where every other group goes for a piss and you can fuck right off. I'm not your mum.

Women are allowed to set boundaries without having to sort out solutions for everyone else who is inconvenienced by us setting boundaries.

We've had an honour system that has worked for decades. What a shame the transactivists have trashed it.

I agree Pencils.

Absolutely right, pencils