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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

I'm Jenni Murray

721 replies

MercyMyJewels · 05/03/2017 18:51

Can we show our support for Jenni? I think she will be in for a kicking tomorrow

Thanks Jenni, for your bravery in speaking the truth

  • I'm Jenni Murray
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9
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 12/03/2017 18:33

Which group is it, Ronald? It's not a feminist group any more, is it? This sort of thing is so discouraging. When a feminist group defines women entirely on the basis of gender identity, it removes any means of analysing sex discrimination and disadvantage. If you don't know what "woman" means your feminism is meaningless. And impotent.

seafoodeatit · 12/03/2017 20:26

Ronald - that's very disheartening to hear, I would also say that the group is no longer a feminist one if that's the kind of tripe they're coming out with.

ChocChocPorridge · 12/03/2017 20:29

Ronald, if you felt like it, you can ask how 'woman' is defined, with the earnest explanation that you need to know if you should be here any more.

I've asked a few times on different threads/different places, and they get about 3 deep with me pointing out that so far, by their definition, I'm not a woman, yet I'm an adult female, so perhaps they could explain/define, before they go silent. I hope I've set some cogs turning when I do that.

user1487175389 · 12/03/2017 20:33

I know what you mean about the hopeful silence and the cogs you hope might be turning! I've spent most of the day hoping my social media silence will turn into some coherent contributions from my three remaining 'friends'!

woman12345 · 12/03/2017 20:39

Her article was discussed here, and whether she should be allowed to have views: Hmm
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08h0g4p
Glad to see so much support for her, thank you for the thread and the sister thread on:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2874793-Chimamanda-Ngozi-Adichie-is-also-Spartacus

TinselTwins · 12/03/2017 22:02

I am Jenni Murray.
Thank you.

Ollycat · 12/03/2017 22:35

I've just been googling Lauren Jeska - shocked none of the reports mentioned she was a transwoman or mentioned the motivation for her actions- how can this be??

ErrolTheDragon · 12/03/2017 23:03

Some of the newspapers did include that - but not all, and not the bbc.

Ollycat · 12/03/2017 23:11

ErrolTheDragon that's interesting- nothing comes up in Google - the only mention that they are trans and the reason for the stabbing is in Wiki ...

Shitalopram · 12/03/2017 23:30

I'm Jenny Murray. Flowers

Shitalopram · 12/03/2017 23:31

Jenni (apologies for mis-Jennering)

ErrolTheDragon · 12/03/2017 23:36

Olly - I just googled 'lauren jeska trans', that show quite a few papers (mirror, telegraph, mail, sun on their second story). The Times did too. I think it was more guardian and the bbc who were economical with the truth.

seafoodeatit · 13/03/2017 10:36

I find it very depressing but as is the norm these days, unsurprising that Jeska is in a women's prison.

breakneckspeed · 13/03/2017 10:43

"mis Jennering" Smile

I'm so disappointed with the BBC's treatment of JM.

WhereYouLeftIt · 13/03/2017 10:55

Re Lauren Jeska - I complained to the BBC at the time, and received this mealy-mouthed response:

Thank you for getting in touch about our article reporting that Lauren Jeska has admitted stabbing three top athletics staff at a major UK stadium. (www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-37439875)

Our piece was based on the information that came out in Birmingham Crown Court - including a point made by the defence during proceedings that a diagnosis of autism may be raised at the next hearing - and the Press Association reporter in attendance confirmed that the fact that Lauren Jeska is a transgender woman wasn’t mentioned.

When he subsequently tried to confirm this fact with the Crown Prosecution Service and West Midlands Police neither of them would confirm this.

We’re aware that other media have reported that the CPS and West Midlands Police confirmed she is transgender but our West Midlands team made their own checks, including speaking to the police who denied confirming it.

They also made a call to the CPS the same day but didn’t get a response before the reporter went off-duty.

This led to further discussions within the team the next day in which they decided to wait until confirmation of this fact came out at sentencing, when they will be able to tell the story in full.

We hope you’ll find this useful in explaining the process by which we put this story together and why this detail was not included in our story at this time.

Thank you once again for getting in touch.

Kind Regards

BBC Complaints Team

Shit excuse, right? And no attempt to complete the story with the full facts later. I really am losing faith in the BBC, and I have been a cheerleader for them in the pastSad.

CharlieSierra · 13/03/2017 11:39

I got exactly the same response from the Beeb to my complaint re Lauren Jeska.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/03/2017 12:48

This led to further discussions within the team the next day in which they decided to wait until confirmation of this fact came out at sentencing, when they will be able to tell the story in full.

I wonder if they will, when Jeska is eventually sentenced - according to this, probably still pending psychiatric reports www.newsnorthwales.co.uk/news/169215/powys-fell-running-star-lauren-jeska-who-admitted-attempted-murder-set-for-hospital-order.aspx

FreezerBird · 13/03/2017 13:10

My understanding is that Lauren Jeska is transsexual, rather than transgender - in the sense that she has a GRC and is therefore legally recognised as a woman.

While there's a debate to be had about how best to keep her and other prisoners safe when she is sentenced, it's perhaps not the same as the question of people who 'self identify' as women without any other move towards transition.

Disclaimer: I find the Lauren Jeska case is the one that ties me in knots a little bit because she's someone who is known to me a bit more personally. I would find it weird not to refer to her as 'she' as I've only ever known her as she, and as far as I know her biological sex and trans history wasn't known to people who knew her. People here were shocked and very confused when she committed the crime, having known only this very gentle, softly spoken woman - the only time anyone had ever seen her angry or upset was when she told off a father who was bullying his young son at parkrun for not going fast enough.

The whole thing makes me very sad and while I think she should not be holding women's records and is biologically male, I don't for a moment think she 'identified as a woman' in order to win records and seem a better runner than she was. I've seen a lot of stuff about her 'cheating' and I don't think that was her motivation in that sense.

Anyway. While I'm sad about Lauren Jeska - I'm also sad and angry for all the women who came second to her who should actually be record holders, and I'm also Jenni Murray.

JapabSharted · 13/03/2017 13:51

It matters not though, does it, whether Jeska 'identified as a woman in order to win records or whether Jeska 'identified as a woman' and subsequently decided to compete against biological women to win records

Motivation and timing is irrelevant to the women Jeska beat.

When evil family annihilators are discussed after the horrific events of their making, people always say "but they seemed such a good chap, so nice".

And I always wish people said something more like "Yes, that evil murderous bastard did a good job of keeping up a pleasant facade in public. I am angry to have been taken in as plainly they were NOT the lovely person I took them to be. They are yet another evil murderous bastard."

NotdeadyetBOING · 13/03/2017 13:57

I am Jenni Murray

RakingUpBadMemories · 13/03/2017 14:08

*It matters not though, does it, whether Jeska 'identified as a woman in order to win records or whether Jeska 'identified as a woman' and subsequently decided to compete against biological women to win records

Motivation and timing is irrelevant to the women Jeska beat.*

I could add almost exactly the same words to the case of the (individually lovely) Dr Rachael Padman, who took up one of the few science fellowships available at an all-women's college after being educated as a boy and man. Her appointment did nothing to reduce the imbalance between male and female appointees, and her motivation was also utterly irrelevant to the women she beat. She even says herself (or did, back in 2004) "It doesn't matter how empathetic you are before or during transition or how well you are accepted, you have not been born or brought up as a woman and that inevitably makes a difference.'

Certainly does. In her case, the difference included being at an all-boys' school followed by a PhD at an all-male college, a background that wasn't available to her competitors.

JapabSharted · 13/03/2017 14:12

Couldn't agree more Raking

It has always frustrated me that Padman took the place reserved for a woman, and Greer was ostracised back then for objecting.

FreezerBird · 13/03/2017 14:13

Oh yes, I do get that, I really do.

Like a lot of women, my awareness of these issues has really been raised and helped by the feminism boards and the amazing women who post here. I was just getting to the point where I would describe myself as a gender critical feminist, and really working out what that means, when this happened with Lauren Jeska. I don't think it's changed my thinking but like I said, I do find myself a bit tied in knots about it.

WhereYouLeftIt · 13/03/2017 14:32

"While I'm sad about Lauren Jeska - I'm also sad and angry for all the women who came second to her who should actually be record holders"
And that is the thing. While she may not have considered herself to be cheating - she had a physiological advantage over the rest of the field. And if you compete knowing that, knowing that the born women are very unlikely to come even close to what you can do with your male pelvis, then in my opinion it is cheating.

I am concerned that this could discourage girls from taking up sports seriously; because if they can't compete against transwomen, what would be the point of making all those personal and career sacrifices to train, train, train, compete?

RakingUpBadMemories · 13/03/2017 14:41

Wondering if we were at the same college, JapabS...

I would like to say I have nothing but sympathy for the trans people I know personally (both sexes, bot genders). But actually, I am immensely saddened for the two FtM teenagers who are messing with their hormones at an age when they don't know how their lives will pan out, sympathetic with an edge of irritation at Padman for not quite recognising the unfairness, angry at the MtF sporting acquaintance in his/her 50s who left his kids to be brought up by his wife but still claims to be 'doing the mothering', and irritated beyond sympathy by the pretentious young twit in DS's sixth form who is 'genderfluid' and uses it to demand people read his mind and call him something different daily.