I'm Jenni Murray

[MercyMyJewels]

Can we show our support for Jenni? I think she will be in for a kicking tomorrow

Thanks Jenni, for your bravery in speaking the truth

• I'm Jenni Murray

Male to female trans who said Jenni was being totally unreasonable. She didn't engage or change her view. Her view was the right view.

Female who said that Jenni had a right to air her views and that they were not crossing the line between being an employer within the bbc who is on a freelance contract.

Placemarking for later reading - so many threads!

And 'Emma' made the important point that what Jenni discussed was factually correct.

CoolJazz

They had a trans-woman on there and Emma from Gloucester, hopefully a mumsnetter.

They stuck rigidly to the question of impartiality. They said that as Jenni Murray had shown her 'opinion' in her article should she be allowed to chair a debate. The transwoman said no, Emma said yes of course.

Emma also managed to get in that saying a man born and raised male having a different experience to a woman is not a question of opinion, it's an observation.

The trans-woman kept saying it was controversial and contentious. Wrong. But more of the same old linguistic rhetoric that we hear all the time.

I never listen to this programme so I don't know who the broadcaster is. But I know how I would describe him. Unfortunately I don't want this post to be deleted.

Yes, there was this bizarre discussion about chairing a debate. And that if trans ever came up in a so called debate then Murray would not be able to chair it, given her stated views.

Female said this was not a consideration, given that everyone has preconceived ideas on an issue and that Murray has proved her worth when it comes to debate.

Male to female disagreed. She said that Murray should never be allowed to chair a debate.

Male to female disagreed. She said that Murray should never be allowed to chair a debate.

I'm shocked. Said no-one.

Be whatever 'gender' you want. 'Gender' should be completely and utterly irrelevant. Dress as you wish. Do whatever job your talents and inclinations suit you for. But don't pretend we can opt out of our biological sex. Don't pretend our biological sex is irrelevant.

I couldn't agree more!

I think part of this problem comes from the squirminess people have with saying the word "sex" in certain contexts. I cannot, for example, imagine my very large and very corporate employer countenancing an HR policy about "sex equality" in the same way they are happy to pay lip service to talk about "gender equality".

A poster on another thread has made what I think is a very good suggestion. Instead of gender role call it sex role stereotype. It's a lot less special snowflakery than gender and it does what it says on the tin. It explains it in the name.

It tells everyone exactly what that person is doing. Instead of hiding behind some airy fairy nonsense.

Re: biological sex:

The FBI can tell from DNA whether the person it belonged to was a male or female.

jonfwilkins.com/2013/04/how-does-the-fbi-know-it-found-female-dna/

I really don't get why grown-ups in HR should be bashful about using the word sex rather than gender, given that no-one has any difficulty talking about girls' and boys' schools as being 'single sex'. Maybe the single-ness and age helps because it's clear you mean sex as a biological category not an activity.

But really, FFS they should grow up. The word sex might possibly make some of the less mature schoolchildren titter but surely not adults.

I don't think it's a sniggering issue. I think it's to do with the veneer of polite corporate behaviour combined with not wanting any possible misinterpretation re the other definition of sex. Not to say that saying the word sex = harassment, but introducing it into conversation in another context could increase the risk of people taking things the wrong way. I think (these are just my assumptions). I know the HR staff quite well so I plan to ask them.

Kinddogtail, they can also tell from remains (skeleton) whether a dead and long decayed body was male or female.

Its funny I have just had a conversation with dd1 and 2 (10 and 9). They giggle at ANY mention of the word sex, so they were laughing at the surname Sexton. After much hysterical conversation, I asked, 'girls, do you know what the difference is between sex and gender?' Dd2 said, "of course, sex is whether you have a hoo haa or a ding dong, gender is all the made up rubbish about girls not liking Minecraft."
I am glad something I have said in the last few years has sunk in. (And I promise I have never referred to any body part as a hoo hah or a ding dong)

sex is whether you have a hoo haa or a ding dong, gender is all the made up rubbish about girls not liking Minecraft
At last, a definition I can understand.

The BBC absolutely must not sack jenni Murray.

Ruby
I sometimes teach life drawing and take great pleasure in pointing out the skeleton fact.
Human pelvis. Different. Arm length. Different. Way the leg attaches ( because of the differently shaped pelvis) different. The way the fat is distributed. Different.
It seems like madness that this might be unsayable for some people. It also seems like madness that I do say it and still have students who think there's no such thing as female and male.

Wrapped please could you describe the different leg attachments cos didn't know that although of course I know about pelvis etc

Is it going to get to the stage in the future of NHS staff not being allowed to say when a baby is seen on the scan or when the baby is born that it is a girl or boy (female or male)?

Are there going to be different classifications names in the future?

I realise I have probably missed the point as tbh I hadn't thought about it much before the last few weeks

Woohoo jenni Murray!

sex is whether you have a hoo haa or a ding dong, gender is all the made up rubbish about girls not liking Minecraft

Two little girls who know more about sexual politics than the head of our Women and Equalities Committee.

( get those two on mumsnet the minute they're old enough!)

I'm Jenni Murray too.
I'm not overtly political generally but I'm really concerned about this. Like a previous poster I work in a very liberal 'right on' workplace and was very wary of raising it.
The workforce is mainly women, some mothers/grandmothers some not, and we have all started talking about it now.
We also have trans students and academics around us, they just seem to want to get on with their lives and we treat each other with mutual respect.

Our university also has a reputation for ' No platforming' which is another matter for concern.

Anyway I'm rambling a bit but there is also a discussion on this over at Gransnet.
And it's a bloody hard slog to get the point across. We were even told that that male privilege didn't exist!
By a 'published author' no less!

RT
Well, they attach in the same way but from the outside they look very different. Its because of differences in the ilial crest (pelvis) and also the fat distribution. If you look at these images of male and female torsos from the front you'll see that the dip where you might indicate on a drawing that the leg begins is much higher on a male, giving a longer leg. I always point this out because artists often give females much longer legs and actually the reverse is true.
www.corpshumain.ca/en/Ventre_Dos_en.php