Jenni Murray "Changing sex can't make a real woman"

[Freddorika]

'Those who have lived as men, with all the privileges that entails, do not have the shared experience of growing up female.'

Brave and interesting article in the Times.

Link here behind pay wall I think

Sorry dottyditto not trying to attack you, just really concerned at how this flippantly this has been communicated.

Are we talking about women who are actually women or women with penises? This is why research needs to have defined terms up front so people know what is being talked about.

I'd say you'd need compelling evidence too but I bet any study is small. I don't know any more than this. I think placing this research's context next to the crime described in the story is misleading, leading and down right sickening.

if you know anyone at the department it would be great if you could ask them what the hell they were thinking dottyditto!

No offence taken. I just can't marry misogyny with that particular academic dept. I think I need to read the article again. I do know how well a journo can set quotes against each other to give leading conclusions.

Completely speculating but I wonder if psychological impact includes victim's families too? Could they find it harder to deal with female abusers?

Not my field in the slightest though I do need to know cp inside out in my profession.

Are we talking about women who are actually women or women with penises? This is why research needs to have defined terms up front so people know what is being talked about.

More worryingly it uses the term female rather than woman. And although woman seems to be up for grabs at the moment I thought female still referred to biological sex?!!

Thanks Datun!

Sorry. Didn't even notice it was written by her. (Sleep deprived).

It seems very clumsy to link the research to the crime.

Unless they're creating their own definitions but not telling anyone, female very much refers to biological sex. The one that can carry young and produce ova. Not the one that has a penis.

I can believe it was a journo's stitch up, dotty, and if so, I retract my earlier statement (will delete if you want me to). I just had some unfortunate run-ins with the sex-positive researchers back where I used to work, and leapt to an unwarranted conclusion. (BTW, I have read elsewhere that according to Childline's calls records, there are probably more female offenders than ever get reported - though presumably not 50 times as many as are currently convicted, which is what it would take to bring female sex offending up to a par with male sex offending).

I just can't imagine dottyditto that violent rape and abuse committed by men is more easy to get over than the kind of sex abuse cases committed by [biological] women .

Feminist current just tweeted their lastest piece artfully covering both Murray and this latest madness

www.feministcurrent.com/2017/03/07/jenni-murrays-statements-womanhood-not-bias-truth/

"''Studies of the experiences of sexual abuse victims have suggested that more serious long-term harm for victims results from sexual abuse by women as opposed to men.'"

Okay, her published paper is here:

www.lifescienceglobal.com/pms/index.php/ijcs/article/view/1556/989
The quote in question is on page 2 of 13. Following up the reference, it is actually a sensible looking book chapter by JACQUI SARADJIAN, and makes points such as:

"Current societal schema of women and femaleness is inconsistent with women as sexual offenders (Hislop, 2001). The social schema of maleness readily accommodates a lack of expectation of men to be nurturers and carers, an expectation that men’s need should and will be catered for, and acceptance of overt aggression, sexual initiation and even sexual assault on the part of men. In contrast, the social schema of femaleness readily accommodates women as the nurturers, protectors and carers, often at personal expense. Women are seen as generally non-aggressive and asexual, except in response to men’s desires and male construction of sexuality. Acts that are inconsistent with this schema are readily denied, minimised
or reconstructed in order to fit more readily.."

"For example, adolescent girls may not disclose experiences of sexual abuse perpetrated by a woman for fear of questions related to her sexual orientation. Similarly, adolescent boys who are sexually abused by an adult woman may feel emasculated and may worry about how others will perceive their masculinity (Hislop, 2001) or fear that they will be blamed and even accused of sexually assaulting the woman."

I think the point being made in this chapter is that damage is greater since assault by a female involves the person often seen as the primary protector and nurturer betraying that trust. I quote:

"A particularly significant betrayal is when the perpetrator
is the child’s mother. One adolescent victim of sexual abuse by a female
perpetrator said ‘You expect it of men don’t you? You’re aware. I’d have never got into a car with a man. But you trust women don’t you...."

Which then makes the illustrated news story even worse, in that these very facts suggest the particular evil behind a rapist trying to appear as a woman to try and exploit the very trust that is so damaging when betrayed............

Yes I wondered that Bev - so men define abuse by women as worse than women define abuse by men.

men CANNOT be raped by a woman unless we legally change the definition of rape and woman

Penetration with an object without consent is serious sexual assault by penetration

I wonder how the poor guy feels who is the victim in the court case with 'woman' rapist

This is why i say we need legal advice, as this is going to mess up everything and how we talk about things

thanks for that somedyke. That still doesn't though provide evidence that the violent rapes and assault that women and girls suffer at the hands of men is somehow easier to get over?

oh-oh.

Though it could make for an interesting FOI request January of next year - ask the Home Office or Ministry of Justice how many rapes were committed by men, and how many by women, in the years 2015, 2016 and 2017. Since we know rape (barring rare cases of conspiracy to rape) involves penetration by a penis, this would give a baseline estimate of how many crimes by transwomen are now being recorded as crimes by women.

Male Privilege

For you User

Now go and educate yourself

I'm reserving judgment for now but I do think deliberate mischief might have gone on somewhere

I did wonder if the subs were intentionally subverting the article by using a photo of someone so obviously a man to illustrate it.

What privileges? I'm a man and don't have any privileges

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Riiiiiight.

You're very funny!