Jenni Murray "Changing sex can't make a real woman"

[Freddorika]

'Those who have lived as men, with all the privileges that entails, do not have the shared experience of growing up female.'

Brave and interesting article in the Times.

Link here behind pay wall I think

No problem so with transgender males it seems.

*Not a word spoken about females who transition to males. Now I wonder why there is no problem there?

Rhetorical question obviously.*

As you know yourself they are biological females, no issues there.

'male' is an adult human male, women who transition are transmen

'female' is an adult human female.

There is no making a male or female out of the opposite sex

It's important to use the right words.

Personally I prefer MtT and FtT for clarity.

And yes transmen are an entirely different kettle of fish to transwomen, and of course they are female so they have a place in feminism and women's spaces.

Isn't it really simple when you get down to it?
Person with penis - men's spaces, men's prison.
Person with vagina - women's spaces, women's prison.
If someone has surgery to change their body, I would include them as above. What they choose to call themselves is up to them, as long as they follow the physical rules to protect everyone else.

I think transwomen are vulnerable in men's prisons too, as are transmen. I feel gender reassigned transwomen should be able to access women's spaces. As has been articulated, I don't hear much from the transmen community on how they feel about issues such as prisons, etc [would like to see that doc Bev] Doesn't seem to be such a loud collective voice from transmen, that's for sure.

"Doesn't seem to be such a loud collective voice that's for sure"

That'll be because they're female. They've been socialised as female so demanding and shouting isn't how they do things.

Plus there isn't such an issue with ftt in prison as mtt because females commit crime at a much lower rate than males. Therefore there are fewer ftt in prison than mtt.

No problem so with transgender males it seems

I stand a little differently here. Having interacted with some FtTs I have to say that I find some quite disquietening and overtly sexist and misogynist. I've found an impetus towards acting like a 'typical man' (putting natal women down) to be quite common. However, I largely set that aside here because I think there are bigger issues at stake.

charlottebronte but gender reassigned trans women are still on average much physically stronger than biological women. And that puts biological women in greater danger. I think it would be better to have a specific wing for trans people.

Or perhaps men could take a long hard look at themselves and ask why it is that people are falling over themselves to avoid having to share confined spaces with them. Just saying.

Men should stop being violent. Why isn't anyone addressing that HUGE elephant in the room? It is not our problem as women to make space for men because they are afraid that other men will beat them up or rape them for not being typically macho.

I don't want to share my women only spaces with any kind of man- including sex-reassigned ones. They are still men. Having been around sex reassigned men I can say they have nothing in common with women.

i posted this on one of the other JM threads, but think it's worth repeating here.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4305270/RACHEL-JOHNSON-woman-trial-rape-Really-No.html

Well done Rachel Johnson.

There's also a very good piece by Victoria Coren Mitchell in today's Guardian:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/12/transgender-free-speech-bbc-jenni-murray-victoria-coren-mitchell

She very cleverly nails the hypocrisy of the BBC about JM - and great that it's in the paper that does so much censorship of women in relation to trans issues.

Good to see that women are starting to raise their voices in protest

Ooops - it's in the Observer - the Sunday 'version' of the Guardian!

The Mitchell article was fucking hilarious. Absolutely brilliant. The bits about Linklater and the Rhino were very, very nice.

Yep spot on.

I liked the ambiguity of who was slowly waking up to being bullied. Cleverly made it look as if it could be the trans w.

Gary Lineker and the rhino :)

I'm posting this on both threads but more support for Jenni Murray from today's Sunday Times p23

Coming back to the original post, THIS is why Trans women will never be 'real' women. Though injustices happen to them, this will never happen to them. :(

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/12/slavery-sicily-farming-raped-beaten-exploited-romanian-women?CMP=fb_gu

For me, it's the potential for this to happen. There is no potential on this scale for Trans women to be exploited in this way. As a woman, if my geographical context were different, there is the potential for this to happen to me.

Which is why the argument that 'so you have to have experienced x y z to be a women, so what do you say about women who never had children etc' argument is crap - it's the potential.

Victoria C-M's article didn't read as entirely supportive to me - but perhaps she's hedging her bets a bit?

Shit VIOLETsunflower - I live on Malta, 250km away, with self-determination.

This is the difference. A man will never be able to trap a transwoman by holding her hostage with his greater strength and raping her until she is held hostage by the need to protect her children.

Any woman, and especially any woman who's had kids would realise that is an enormous difference.

Before kids, I didn't realise how much I would consider them as 'me' I knew I'd love them, knew they would matter, but I didn't realise how much.

Think about a WH radio interview with a woman who has experienced this. Who would be appropriate - Jenni or India?

No question, Jenni.