Paris Lee talking at MN - thread 2

[shinynewusername]

1st thread here

MN has invited Paris Lee to speak at its Blogging event.

Meanwhile, actual women are being silenced.

They dont have to be in a hard position. They could just come out in solidarity with women.

Its surprising, every time I get up the courage to state my views on this issue in everyday conversation, people agree with me. Ive not had a single real life 'meatspace' person go all trans ally on me. Teen girls especially, the second they realise they are safe to express concerns, it comes flooding out. Theyre terrified of being caught having questions on this.

I suspect Justine has a personal relationship with Paris Lees.

Could be, but my money is on it being all about money.

Losing staff is expensive. 24 hour moderation is expensive. Senior staff fielding calls from representatives from organisations such as Mermaids is expensive.

And selecting PL to Chair a MN event is the perfect way to address the problem by losing some controversial posters in protest and justify tightening up on moderation of the rest in response to the entirely predictable attacks made on Justine. Objections to the inclusion of a person who has generated their reputation through personal attacks on social media are inevitably going to reflect the nature of what is being objected to.

I have no doubt that Justine was waiting for the thread on the PL selection to be posted; poised to respond, inflame the situation and allow "us" (Sparticus's) to give her exactly what she was looking for.

Had it been a genuine misjudgement, then the advice from the marketing team would have been unequivocal - "don't respond, ignore, there are no positives to reacting". The fact that Justine selectively engaged and responded only reinforces my suspicion that this is a well executed move.

The post in Site Stuff was drafted, cleared by the legal advisors and ready to go as soon as this thread (and its previous 1000+ posts) gave the justification for it. We fell into it, hook, line and sinker.

I would hope... HA!

I dont think it was well executed, if youre right I mean. And I genuinely believe that in a few years, if that, the trans bubble is going to burst.

How does it look for a parenting forum to be giving a platform with absolute unnaccountability to a person who
a) cyber abuses and harasses women
b) promotes illegal recreational drug use
c) promotes casual, rough sex and belittles and demeans women who say they dont, or just implies they dont in a verbal battle of Im The Cool Girl
d) promotes transitioning children
etc

i meant to say promotes casual rough sex with strangers

but its when PL implies that doing that is part of what makes them a woman and that it makes them superior to women who dont do the above that grates on my nerves.

Well, given PL track record of discussion level, you never know they might simply prove our point for us.

This is how it goes.

Weirdly the trans movement is full of loads of gamers. Gamers are brilliant at tech. Techy people are great at changing serach engine results. Recently , although now its changed, the first ten results of violence against women gave half about transwomen. Trans activists have taken over much of Wikipedia.

Trans activists are young, techy and organised, they can repeatedly contact advertisers on social media. A story about MN being host to "transphobia" is something that would be flashed across all social media and it would, again, be invaded by trans activists. Plus Justine strikes me as a champagne socialist, part of the liberal elite and not in a critical way. I've never met the woman by she's extremely savvy. I have plenty of lovely friends who would fit the same description.

Mumsnet must be ticking along nicely financially and giving a welcome mat to trans women when feminists have been incredibly vocal would be very difficult.

Yes. But there are many, many more women than MTT and whilst they may be better funded, we are the consumers that advertisers want to tap. By a long, long margin.

I found this thread after reading Justine's post in site stuff (which I broadly agree with)

I think the thread has been moderated with a slightly heavy hand, but to be fair, this is probably the only major site where one can discuss trans issues at all

I am also going to hold my judgement until after blogfest. I have not followed the work of Lee's, but it seems to me from what you lot have said, that they Lee's ideas might not stand up to real scrutiny particularly well, and Blogfest is a reasonably high profile event. If the event is chaired well, it may well just give them enough rope.

PL isnt stupid, blogfest is not the forum for their more abusive or misogynist bs, thats what Vice is for.. theyll be on their best behaviour enjoying a spot that they really dont deserve, especially enjoying it knowing their invitation has hurt a lot of women.

The point is, PL has been given credibility by being given a place on that panel. Women who actually deserve their places have been moved along for Lees. Women who imv are being insulted by being expected to sit alongside PL and pretend that PL does 'blogging for good' when the reality is Lees is a cyber harasser who uses their platforms to make nasty sexist and sexualised comments about women, usually feminists.

It is sick.

My guess is that PL is savvy enough to be moderate in that context, and may come across as sweetly reasonable - not everything PL says is objectionable, there's some good things as well as bad.

i wouldnt go that far! Maybe less objectionable, not seen anything id class as 'good' yet though.

I am astonished that Mumsnet would endorse the views of Paris Lees to the degree that they would invite Lees to teach the disgusting methods they use. Shocking!

Can I just say how much I like the piece below? Although not for reasons which will please Paris Lees. She's so pleased with herself- so sure it shows what a crazy, wild , free spirited satirist she is. Except it's dreadful writing but very revealing of how spiteful and shallow she is.

Gia Milonovich is the girl in the playground shouting “You’re not pretty like us!” but who never gets into trouble because she’s banging the head of science, Mr Cox. She’ll tell you what being trans is all about. Me, sir! Me! I know the answer! I’ve read the next chapter!

Then there’s Sarah Ditum, your best mate’s mum who won’t sign the consent forms for the school trip. She hates FUN. I don’t. I’m the girl with the short skirt and too much makeup on hiding behind the bike shed with a bong, a packet of Superking Menthols and Liam from 6th Form








The Woman Who Thinks Reducing the Male Population by 90 Percent Will Solve Everything
The Trans Activists are the kids with crap shoes sitting in the library crying about Meanies and TERFs, quoting Judith Butler and prattling on about some impenetrable gender theory they believe is gonna change the whole fucking world. At least trans people have a reason for being interested in trans issues, though. You know, because we’re trans. Still, it’s reciprocal insanity – and I should know. I used to be a bit obsessed with Julie Bindel before I realised that she’s actually a professional concern troll. So I "get it" when I say what I’m about to say next.

Trans people, ignore the bullies. I’m not here to bash trans folk who, by and large, don’t have the platforms these radical feminists enjoy – but a large number of you are doing my fucking head in. If people upset you, block them. Report them to the police if necessary. If they’re trying to influence policy makers who hold real power over your life, talk to those policy makers yourself. TERFs wrote a shitty blog about me a few years ago, calling me "Mr Lees". I left them a comment along the lines of "Yeah, good one. Love Mr Lees." They haven’t bothered me since. Don’t let them bother you. Buy some flowers. Run a bath. Masturbate. Look on Facebook to see how the real people who were horrible to you at school are all ageing badly as their rotten souls shine through. Basically, just do absolutely anything other than engage with their bullshit. You’ll be happier. They have no power over you. Stop giving them power.

And stop pushing people away that might otherwise be our allies – all those well-meaning but woefully uninformed people on the edge of the scuffle. Some people are prejudiced but the best way for us to change that is by helping them get to know us, not backing them into a corner. Of course you are right to be angry, but your anger isn’t making anything better. It’s just upsetting you and goading them. Trust me. I’m a selfish bitch and I know how to get what I want – this isn’t how you go about it.

Also, a tiny, unidentified, minority of people, presumed to be trans, have even been making death threats – and the TERFs and Meanies are, disgustingly, using shit like this to tar all of the trans community. And there’s no excuse for misogyny, or transphobia, from anyone. Who benefits from that? No one. It doesn’t help women, trans or otherwise. It’s a shame so many "natural born" women are unhappy with their lives, and it’s a shame so many trans women are too, but no one is forcing you to get together and multiply that misery by being shitty to each other. It’s called nativism and it serves no one.



They tried to talk to me about identity politics and I was like…

Of course, there are good points being made on either side – but good luck picking them out. Juliet Jacques penned a very thorough and very well written 9,000-word essay for the New Statesman recently, providing some background to the bickering. It doesn’t surprise me that Mrs Ditum praised it, for it was more "discussion" and endless discussion is what these people and this war depend on. As with any heated conflict, though, understanding the history doesn’t really help. The only way any dispute is resolved is by both sides agreeing to stop shouting and hurling missiles at each other, forgetting the past and starting to respect each other's human rights. Sorry, but we’re not going to "think" our way out of this one.

As for you, Meanies, you need to get over yourselves. If you asked 1000 women in the street what issues matter to them most, I doubt anyone who isn’t trans or called "Glosswitch" would say "trans people". If you’re that concerned with us, you really do need to ask yourself why. Seriously. Get a fucking life. If Caroline Criado-Perez has a few spare hours to write about the oh-so important issue of how she feels about the word "cis", good for her. I’m no more interested in that than I would be in her innermost thoughts on the term “white people”. Let her get on with it. It has absolutely nothing to do with me or the struggle for equal rights.

And there is no such thing as "feminism that opposes transgenderism". Opposing equal rights for trans people is called bigotry. Women have always existed and trans people have always existed, the only thing that truly changes is the way that other people agree to treat us. "Transgenderism", if that’s what some people want to call it, is nothing more than a push for the equal rights of trans people – just as feminism is nothing more than a push for the equal rights of women. It’s not complicated. It’s not a fucking competition. Everyone deserves respect. If there are any instances where people’s rights appear to compete – such as the important conversation about how we make sure every woman has access to safe spaces in rape crisis centres – let’s talk about it sensibly, practically and with genuine compassion.

"Discussing other people's identities is 'Peak Chattering Classes'"

Discussing other people’s identities though is, to borrow a turn of phrase these people will all recognise, “Peak Chattering Classes". A bunch of boring, middle-class, middle-aged people arguing about who is "right" and prattling on about shit like, “If Imogen identifies as X, how does that affect me?” I’ve seen sad fuckers from both sides of the fence waffling on about this on social media and it’s like, Hello, have you lot never heard about sex? Where I come from people don’t sit around on the veranda dissecting the minutiae of identity politics – we’re too busy looking for jobs or, in the absence of those, that ever shrinking social security blanket that you pampered pricks will never have to worry about wrapping yourselves in.

The thing that annoys me most is, while we don't need Gia Gia wondering out loud if trans babies would be better off aborted, we do need proper fucking feminism. Sarah Ditum writes about important issues like rape and abortion sometimes… imagine what we could do if we all focused on stuff like that with her. If we put real people before ideology. If we all pulled together to fight the good fight instead of fighting each other!

So finally, trans crew, if you want to fight, fine, but fight about something real. Like healthcare. Julie Bindel describes hormone blockers for trans teenagers as “child abuse” and genital surgery as “the operation that can ruin your life”. We don’t tolerate twats who say you can “pray away the




Oh lord. I only meant to post the bold text. Sorry.

I don't think it's dreadful writing. I am probably the only person here who thinks Lees is actually quite talented. It's just, the viciousness, the inaccuracy, the self-aggrandisement.
There is no connection between writing well and saying something true or worth saying. (There are, after all, plenty of witty racists about.) But if you do write well the readers need to be more on their guard because you can say more destructive and untrue things and get away with it.

I know I said I'd bow out of this convo, but this is niggling at me - what are the 'equal rights' that Lees is saying they don't have. Apart from access to women's spaces. Is it free 'bottom surgery'?

What has been running through my mind is that if a woman-born-woman said the kinds of things that PL is saying, and especially in the name of feminism, she would get called on it. But PL gets away with statements that are very sexist and detrimental to women.

It is access to women's spaces.

Maybe they mean being allowed to wear skirts etc to work/school, but they could fight that alongside women and girls if they wanted to. Female people have been challenging uniform rules since forever.

Good luck today RowanMN - hope the discussion is productive and enlightening for Blogfest attendees

I just skimmed the Juliet Jacques piece that Lass mentioned (TL;DR) and which Lees dismissed as unwanted 'debate'.

There is no doubt, that for some trans people, something is indeed very miss matched. Whether it's physical or mental, who knows.

There was no misogyny there. But, at the same time, whatever 'identity' she is speaking from (and it's fairly heartfelt), I don't recognise it as 'woman'.

The new wave of trans like Juno, Lees, Jenner are easily recognised as very male in the way they talk.

I suspect people like Miranda, Helen and Juliet Jacques are the ones now being renamed by TRAs as 'Truscum'.

Does anyone know if there has been anything recent written about these clearly different types of transpeople, by a transperson?

thecountess

I agree with you regarding the writing

Paris certainly has a way with words and is obviously very quick witted...on paper at least as i have never seen anything in real life as it were

To me Paris Lees style just seems like a not-so-smart and lacking-authenticity Julie Burchill rip-off.

None of Lees articles actually make an argument. They are completely riddled with fallacies. They basically go like this (the following is my paraphrasing not a quote):

Trans women should be given access to womens spaces because they might attempt suicide otherwise. Trans women should be given access to womens spaces because they are weak from hormones so no threat. If women dont let trans women into their spaces its because they are boring bigots who dont really like sex. Anyway who cares this ideology politics stuff is so boooooring just do what I say because look! I had some cool pictures of me made up to show how cool and sexxxay I am. Why would you agree with the boring bitches, have I told you about the time I fucked this stranger on the bus?

I like Julie Burchill's writing though I dont always agree with her (to say the least). Paris Lees clearly tries to emulate Burchill's style but lacks her intelligence and wit. Lee's work is incredibly juvenile, I cant imagine a woman who wrote like that getting published by the same places let alone winning awards and more platforms for their work.

I posted this on the thread in Site Stuff:

I've followed all the trans threads and never commented. From all I've read it appears like someone who has used words like 'wanker' to refer to others who have genuine questions is then being afforded air time despite this, when - perhaps understandably - people see this as a bit of a double standard. In some ways if we are to tolerate that person's misogyny and offensive remarks, they should also tolerate the anger that then stirs up. Not that it should be tit for tat, but stones and glasshouses come to mind and as women we're all told to shut up almost every day as it is.

I'm a mental health blogger who experiences some absolutely horrific abuse online, and where I feel it has a basis of logic or raises a question I think might be of some value I engage. A lot of what I'm subjected to is misogyny, extremely personal and even some threats of violence, and none of it with any provocation. I show I won't tolerate it by addressing it so others can see. I would've said anything I'd say here both in my blog and in person to whomever I was talking about - it's sort of a rule I have - but it does concern me that tolerance doesn't always nurture debate, sometimes it just keeps others 'in their place' so to speak. You do have to separate the person from their words and acknowledge that if something that seems offensive is not simply being used to inflame, but because it's symptomatic of an argument or core belief, then perhaps it should play out.

For me the difference between PAs on MNHQ/other MNers and a guest like Paris is that we sort of know what sort of a character Paris is from the mass of published material we can easily find. I know nothing of the mods or other posters here in comparison, so I wouldn't have any reason to PA them - I would however point out flaws in things they said as I saw them. I don't resort to name-calling because it would feel like I was admitting to being wrong (blame the ASD).

Justine's point about the 'AI' of SM influencing things like the US election is extremely key here too - and by that I mean that the more we 'tolerate' what can be harmful words or ideas (esp. if harmful to the parents MN is supposed to be supporting, or making their lives easier), the more those harmful words begin to infiltrate and influence everything else we see. Things become normalised that shouldn't be.

Spartacus has been pivotal for me and I value the debate immensely; it may seem like a 'vocal minority' but many of us are actually trans-advocates and people who in life fight for the rights of those who are downtrodden.

To me Paris Lees style just seems like a not-so-smart and lacking-authenticity Julie Burchill rip-off

I've said that several times ! It's ironic given how frequently Burchill gets lumped in and criticised as one of the old guard