Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

I mean yes, I agree with you totally Vestal, in case that's not clear!

Mycat: 'Trapped in the wrong body' is transphobic according to the modern 'self-declared' transwoman, a la Danielle Muscato. See Truscum, transmedicalist. Apparently you don't have to have dysphoria to be trans.

I don't think it's misogynisitic, why do you think it is? I feel the same about a woman who feels that she should have been born a man. I was born as a female and never felt I should have be born a male so I don't understand what that feels like, but I'd imagine it's a feeling of being trapped in the wrong body. I don't know how else to explain what I mean, not deliberately being obtuse, etc

I also think that women are often oppressed by other women, and when I see women in power that do nothing to change the things women face every day it's unforgivable. Austerity hits mothers and children the hardest, so does war and poverty. Yet there are women in power that do fuck all to change our lives, they vote in policies that directly affect us and our lives, our childrens and families lives. And that's what pisses me off more than the toilet situation.

Bambini, sorry if I'm confused
Yes that does seem to be the trans way of thinking
I was asking you to please explain it because I thought you were agreeing with it and could explain it
But maybe you are making fun of it?
Argh, I'm so confused

Mycat, surely people who really feel they are trapped in the wrong body would take steps to change it, not just decide that certain items of clothing belong to one biological sex and that all that's required is to don one of those?

Lorelei I don't know about that - I don't know if I was in that situation if I'd want to go through the pain of full reconstructiv surgery. Some people also might not be able to for health reasons? And I'm not sure it's as easy just putting on a set of clothing?

OK mycat so because you have no problem getting butt naked in front of random naked men, every other woman and girls should be forced to accept it? That's progressive stuff

Did people miss the post way back saying they sometimes have to share a hotel room with a colleague?
Yes.

What would happen if that colleague was a transwoman? Under the proposed new laws would that mean a woman could be forced to share with them or face disciplinary action?

I was thinking about this. I'm tolerably certain that were my dear employer be needing to save costs, travel bans and redundancies would be way ahead of them ever considering people having to share hotel rooms as ways of saving money. But, let's say they did...

There are some of my male colleagues I'd be more comfortable about sharing with than some female colleagues. Having the same type of genitals doesn't necessarily mean someone is nice and trustworthy. I know some of my male colleagues well enough that I think we might feel uncomfortable, but we could talk about it and come to an agreement ("if you change while I'm in the shower, then we can swap. And if you snore, I will throw things at you...") So I think I'd probably be okay with sharing with a trans colleague I knew well, and I'd be less comfortable sharing a room with any colleague I didn't know (or know bur don't like) than I would in a mixed hostel dorm room with total strangers, because I probably wouldn't see any of the latter again. And it's probably because I have done the latter on more than one occasion that the thought of sharing a room with a colleague doesn't fill me with total horror - but I don't think it would ever be great to share with any colleague because work wants to save money, and whether someone is trans is only a tiny issue there - but I do think it's an issue, because if an employer was insisting on sharing rooms, I suspect it would be women who have to share with MtF who haven't had any surgery ("but that's how they identify") and also with FtM ("but they haven't had surgery yet,") so women get shafted both ways. (I mostly mean figuratively rather than literally, but also literally.)

It's not really about individuals feel or might arrange things EEBear. It's about whether women would be forced to share a room with a man, whether they were happy with it or not.

Mycat, I accept that tgey might not want surgery but if you still have a penis, use the toilet designed for that. And no it's not as simple as dress, we can all now self identify, even simpler!

It might actually help if women en masse start to identify as men. Hey according to the science museum my brain is male so why shouldn't I? Shall I stand next to my male best mate in the gents and chat to him while pretending to ignore the guts at urinals? That would get me sued pdq I reckon.

Hermione so even though all the guidance seems to say that they should be in the loos according to their preferred gender, and objectors should be re-educated, you think there is still some wiggle room?

Lorelei76

75% of mtf keep their male genitals.

Guys not guts!

Mycat: Do you acknowledge that a woman cannot request a female rape counsellor and get one?

Harlot, yes I know that now thanks to MN.

I would love to be a women who had no fear of men. The laws are heading to any man whatever they look like declaring that "today I am a woman" and they are. I spend so much time ensuring my teenagers know the dangers about sexting, boundaries and peer pressure for now to have to tell my DD ignore all the above if Paul becomes Paula but may be Paul again tomorrow it only a naked bodies in changing rooms. What's the worse that could happen, well that's why I would love to be women without fear as then that would be a world without sexual assault.

WW I've already answered you, no I don't ackowledge it because you can request a female councellor, did you miss my reply?

As for use the toilet you were 'designed' to use, a toilet is a toilet, whether you have a penis or a vagina the toilet is the same design.

To those of you have disagreed with me, that's fine but nobody has commented on my point of how we're all discussing how women feel, but what are we doing about the women at the top with the power who aren't accountable to the rest of us? Isn't that more important than who's doing a wee in the toilet next to you at work or in a shopping cente?

I'm pretty horrified by this thread.

Trans people are often incredibly vulnerable and go through awful mental suffering - rates of suicide and violence against them are sky high. Hate the posting of a few mtf with beards as if they were the rule.

Seriously have some empathy.

Isn't that a subject for another thread Mycat? Why would you try to derail this one?

WW I've already answered you, no I don't ackowledge it because you can request a female councellor, did you miss my reply?

Mycat I can't follow your logic on this. You also stated: But if they want to be recognised as either male or female without going through the surgery, for me that's fine

So a born man with a male body can be recognised as 'female' without going through surgery. So how do women ensure they have a female-bodied rape counsellor?

mycat it reads as if you are the one trying to change the conversation! to steer it away from the current discussion. We're discussing men be allowed to go into, what were supposed to be, female only spaces, not women at the top.

It's not really about individuals feel or might arrange things EEBear. It's about whether women would be forced to share a room with a man, whether they were happy with it or not.

No, but what I was trying to say in a very long-winded way is that there are lots of people I wouldn't be happy to share with, and it's not necessarily about their sex or identified gender - sharing rooms is potentially problematic for all sorts of reasons, and therefore is best avoided, and not just because of sex.

Seriously have some empathy.

Why does having empathy and eolling over to accomadate mens wants fo hand in hand?

I have empathy for the difficulties many people face. Does that mean i must put aside my needs and my feelings?
Men are not asked to be empathic to transwomen by allowing them to use male private spaces without harm or abuse. So why are women expected to gove over there private spaces?

Rolling