Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

I'm not trying to derail it, if you've RTFT and all my posts I've said one of the reasons why trans women using a toilet next to me wouldn't bother me is because I'm more pissed off about other things. And that trans people are at the bottom of the pile and many women in power to fuck all to help us, trans women (and men) especially. Jesus.

As for me being happy butt naked in a communal changing room full of men. I'd be happy for more communal changing areas. But that isn't what's going to happen is it? A handful of biological men who haven't gone through surgery yet are going to be getting changed next to you. Not to rape, assault or harass just to get changed. Probably keeping a towel on as much as possible, maybe not. In fact in all women's changing rooms I've been in there are cubicles too.

And to if itquackslikeaduck - so trans people are going to flash and harass women in a changing room but won't get done cos they'll say they'll identify as a woman - I don't think it's as simple as that, do you?

I've never believed in punishing the majority for the crimes of the few.

"having a person who is transgendered in a toilet cubicle next to you on Monday does not mean your daughter will be forced to shower with three fully cocked males by Friday."

Probably not this Friday, no.

But the law that means the OP can be considered a bigot who needs brainwashed reeducated says that you would be bigoted and wrong if your daughter did find herself in showers with transwomen with penises and you had any issue with that.

And let's be clear about this - although taboo, there are many many testimonies of transwomen finding being around girls and women in spaces like showers and toilets sexually stimulating and satisfying.

Think about that before calling other women bigots or old fashioned or pearl clutching or not right on liberal inclusive progressives like you.

I don't want people with penises getting their jollies in public spaces such as toilets and changing rooms designed to protect my and my daughter's privacy and dignity. I don't want my daughter in a state of undress in proximity to a penis with its owner getting excited at the idea of themselves as a woman. I and my daughter are not wank fodder for adult males who fetishize the idea of themselves as women (and sometimes girls). I will not be made to participate in or validate adult male sexual fetishes.

I have less of an issue with transwomen who are are not practicing autogynephilia but they are still not female and I don't want them in female space.

violence against them are sky high we're only too aware of violence. The irony is, that you can't equate that with women's fear of violence FROM men in female spaces. Mtfs still commit the same level of violence, after they try to become females. However we're considered trans phobic if we, as females, say that makes us not want to share female only spaces. Why aren't men being made to feel responsible for trans women's safety? Why aren't THEY being told they must make mtf feel safe in the male bathrooms? Why must women give up their rights?

Nearlyhellokitty there has to be empathy on both sides though doesn't there - which would mean having empathy for women who really do not feel safe having to share male intimate spaces with male bodied people. I can think of many reasons why that might be.
So if there is empathy for us as well as for transwomen, why is the possibility of a third gender neutral private cubicle toilet being uniformly rejected?

I would love to be a women who had no fear of men

Me too. I like to run/walk with my dog. And I love to go off path on country treks. Even though my dog is pretty ferocious looking (but is actually a sweetie) I am too scared to run off-path on my own. I do run them with a friend and even then we are careful. And there are random men hanging about.

And I have good reason to be fearful of men.

I do not want to get changed in front of men. I don't want men to get changed in front of me. I don't want them in female spaces like toilets or rape ccentres. I don't wish transwomen any harm, in fact I would campaign for them to have their own safe spaces. But not mine, because they are not women, they are transwomen. They are male and most of them have penises. And most are attracted to women

nearlyhellokitty the group with the highest suicide rates is men in their 40s. That doesn't mean men in their 40's belong in women's spaces, no matter how empathetic we may feel towards them.

Other vulnerable groups who me might empathise with, but who do not belong in women's spaces, include disabled men, old men, BME men, gay men, men with MH issues, homeless men, men who have suffered abuse, men with LD ...

They are women's spaces, segregated on the basis of bilogical sex, not spaces for anybody who is vulnerable for whatever reason.

nearlyhellokitty I agree with you. So many posters outraged at how women's rights are taken away from them if transwomen are allowed to use female loos at work but don't give a shit at how we're being oppressed in so many other important ways BY OTHER WOMEN and they don't see the link??

Good luck, I'm going.

Sexual violence against women is also sky high. I am always astonished when people use the existence of violence against transwomen - which is real, but so is the violence against us - to suggest that women's rights are completely unimportant.

Before you go can you address my post, mycat? It's what WW has been trying to get at for quite a while as well.

FFS. Before I go. I have addressed yours an WW's post re the counsellors. For the 3rd time, You CAN request a female and get one. What makes you think you can't? Would you like to address my posts about women oppressing other women? It's what I've been trying to get at for quite a while as well.

Kitty
Why don't you have empathy for women not happy with men in women's safe spaces just as changing rooms and rape crisis centres? Empathy for women who have been sexually assaulted by men made to change in front of men?

Why don't you have any empathy for women? Why do you only have empathy for men?

Mycat
Transwomen are not women, they are biologically, scientifically male. So your point re oppression of women is nonsense

I have empathy for trans women and trans men.

mycat

Please dont be ignorant and assume because i dont want TW in female spaces i dont care about female opression elswhere.
Of course i do. I challenge it whenever i can but THIS thread is about a TW using female toilets so that is what i am basing my comments on.

But no empathy for women...

You really can't see the contradiction in your posts?

1. You're saying that transwomen should be recognised as female if they want to be, without surgery.

1. You're also saying that rape victims should be able to request a female rape counsellor if they wish.

1. The logic of this is that they might get a transwoman rape counsellor (with an intact penis) because these people would be recognised as female.

Or have you another way of squaring the circle in mind?

It can be argued that women and transwomen are both vulnerable from the same aggressor but the changes and interpretations of law allow that same aggressor equal access as the trans women as anyone can be a woman when they choose to be. The only action that can ever be taken is after an attack .

No I guess I don't have empathy for any human that wants to put down another human, be they born male or female or trans and that's what people are doing here. Putting down someone that identifies as the wrong sex be it man or woman and being outraged they might piss in a toilet next to them or want to grope them.

MN hysteria in overdrive.

Mycat
You're okay with someone feeling like a man or a woman and using facilities accordingly, yes?
When you say you'd be happy to see more communal facilities you mean mixed sex, yes?
I'm just asking because that's how some of my friends feel, they think mixed sex everything is a solution.

You can't change sex. You can think you are now a woman but doesn't mean anyone else has to go along with it.

The same way as white woman can not decide she's suddenly black. She might identify as being black but she's a white woman and we can all see that.

For the 3rd time, You CAN request a female and get one

But by your logic cat that may be female of the thinky sort, not a real, actual adult human female.

It's kinda odd being an idea in a man's head, who knew that's all I was eh.

You must believe Rachel Dolezal is black then.

Lorelei yes, I'm happy for mens, women's and communal areas. And I'm for trans using whichever toilet they want. Apparantly this makes me myogynistic because I don't care about how women with a vagina feel. Which is ironic because that's not how i live my life at all and I do give a shit about how women are treated by men and other women.

Mycat: This is the last time I will ask and if you don't respond I will take that as agreement with Maud and I.

A rape victim cannot request a female counsellor because the 'female; counsellor you get may be a transwoman whose 'identity' the rape victim is not allowed to challenge.

Do you understand and acknowledge this?

Or do you think the rape victim can and should be able to request a 'real' female counsellor? You think the rape victim should be able to question the 'identity' of a transwoman?

ooh 'hysteria' again
bingo

That would be great Lorelei if it wasn't for that pesky epidemic of violence against women and girls, maybe we should do something about that first.