Only trans women have vaginas, women have 'front holes'

[Triskaidekaphobic]

That's according to this Guide to safer sex for trans people

VAGINA: We use this word to talk about the genitals of trans women who have had bottom surgery.”


FRONT HOLE: We use this word to talk about internal genitals, sometimes referred to as a vagina. A front hole may self-lubricate, depending on age and hormones.

FFS when is this madness going to end. Trans activists are attempting to appropriate or erase everything about being female.

I will never call my vagina a front hole, it's not a hole and tbh I find it grossly offensive to women to refer to it as such.

[scallopsrgreat]

DroptheSword it is still suggesting calling a vagina a hole. I have a vagina. It is not a hole. Whether they are referring to themselves or not is irrelevant. Can you really not see how calling a female genital a hole is problematic, in the context of women being objectified and regularly viewed as "fuck holes" or basically receptacles for men's dicks?

I also agree with Mephisto about the dissociation from this genitals and the mental health issues surrounding this.

[scallopsrgreat]

I can totally understand that Matilda. I still have a major issue with word hole being used. It isn't necessary.

[perpetuallybewildered]

When I was a girl it was common to hear boys talking about 'getting their hole'. At the time I was extremely uncomfortable with that expression, I'm now in my sixties and would hate to think that my granddaughters will grow up hearing the vagina being commonly referred to as a 'hole'. It's degrading.

[FreshwaterSelkie]

I get that Matilda. Like I said, while I was initially outraged, that then softened to sadness. But if the key to this pamphlet is a balance between accessibilty and accuracy in reaching out to a population, then it ought to have used the phrase "neovagina" for trans women. There are issues in relation to neo vaginas that vaginas don't have and vice versa. That it doesn't, preferring to use the term "vagina" is telling, don't you think? If trans men's feelings aren't to be hurt then the word vagina is still right there, and in the descriptions, the terms used are "vagina or front hole". Are trans men happy with this, I wonder? I don't know and obviously can't speak for them.

I'll hold my hands up and say that yes, in the grand scheme of things, this isn't the hill I want to die on by any means. I'm conflicted here. I hate the thought that people are so damaged they can't stand to name their own body parts, particularly when those body parts have been vilified for years because they belong to women. It just seems to me to be part of the same oppression for women.

But I'll back off the pamphlet and only state that anyone can call their own genitals whatever they so please. Of course they can. But I remain confused about how it is that transactivists get to demand that women not call vaginas vaginas because it's trans exclusive while also happily asserting that women also not mind when the term front hole is used in their community. Because I get a whiff of misogyny from that, I really do.

[CaroleService]

What Matilda said. If transmen don't want to be tethered by nomenclature to a gender they reject, fair enough. Transmen should be able call their own organs whatever they like (so long as they don't re-name mine).

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I think there are a couple of issues here:

Unless transpeople only have sex with other transpeople than this terminology will be used more widely.

Transwomen do not have a vagina. As someone pointed out this is the only "technical" word that has been appropriated from elsewhere.

If transmen feel better calling their vagina a front hole than yes, they need help, but if they want a made up name it's no worse than any of the names (foo foo etc) that appear on threads.

But men cannot have a vagina. They just cannot. And they should not appropriate a name from someone else.

It's is notable that trans men don't get to have penis' they get to have dicks - obviously not ok for the correct name to be appropriated from men.

[FreshwaterSelkie]

Interesting point, ItsAll, and you've highlighted a gap in my thinking. I was assuming the leaflet was aimed at trans people. But it isn't solely, is it - it's aimed at anyone who might be having sex with a trans person. If I was having sex with a transman, would it be his front hole and my vagina? Would our hypothetical trans man need to consider my feelings about "front hole" as I considered his about "vagina"?

Or would that be "cis privilege". I am content with my vagina-owning and so may not have feelings about names for vaginas other than my own.

Anyway, I think I'm coming across as shouting about this now, and it's probably not going anywhere, so I'm going to pipe down for the moment.

[IrenetheQuaint]

"And I think if we want to "win the war" rather than "win the battle", in the sense that we want to avoid a situation like some American states where misgendering becomes an offence legally, or self-identification becomes enough to gain the legal right to enter women's spaces, we have to be careful not to do what extreme TRAs typically do: namely take stuff out of context to generate offence and whip up a frenzy."

YY Matilda. I'm not sure that picking up health leaflets aimed at the trans communities and getting outraged about them really gets us anywhere... it just makes it easier for transactivists to denounce gender-critical feminists as bigots with no understanding of trans people's lives.

[Aliasnumberone]

I'm sorry o haven't had time to fish reading the thread I'm only half way through and have to go but I just wanted to make a quick observation and come back later. In red to the word hole I too find it completely offensive as a woman however I do take note that this pamphlet is aimed at the teams community and isn't saying that women have holes only that women who are trans may not want to be confronted with the word vagina due to their dysmorphia.... However, since MMT use the term female penis and therefore haven't tried to eradicate their own use of male orientated medical terminology surely a more equality aware term would be male vagina.... There ant e two sets of conflicting rules thrust on women here, in one obstacle were asked to believe that penis' can be female, but that vaginas aren't 'good' enough to simply be reassigned with an alternate gender... They are wrong enough to warrant another word? Well that right here is misogyny of the highest order.

[user5318008]

Being trans does not necessarily mean that you have had surgery, want to transition or use specific pronouns. It’s all about how you understand yourself.

I don't care who the leaflet is aimed at. Anything encouraging the increasing movement towards 'trans is whatever you say it is' belongs in the bin. Give it a year and nobody will think Dave Muscato is anything unusual because this line is becoming more and more common in trans propaganda.

Trans is no longer about a strong disconnect between your body and your brain, feeling your body is wrong, disliking your body, etc. You can be a woman who loves having a penis. You can be a man who gives birth and breastfeeds. If you say you're trans, you're trans. It doesn't have a definition anymore.

[SmashingTurnips]

It doesn't actually say that it is a leaflet only aimed at trans people though does it?

It clearly states that it is for transgender people, trans expansive (?) and their partners and lovers.

But even if it were aimed only at trans people, "hole" is a misogynistic word when used about women's genitals. Am I to understand that the argument being made here in defence of the leaflet is that it is ok for trans people to be misogynistic, because trans? That's certainly what it sounds like.

Calling neovaginas "vaginas" and actual vaginas "front holes" is positively Orwellian (as well as horribly anti woman) and suggests either extremely serious levels of mental health issues or extreme misogyny.

Whether or not this leaflet is aimed at trans people is moot. Trans people live in society and they interact with girls and women who are not trans. Encouraging delusion and misogyny in trans people will have a consequence for us all and is IMO a really bad idea for trans people themselves.

Encouraging gender dysphoric females to think of their vaginas as "holes" is hideous and deeply misogynistic.

Encouraging gender dysphoric males to think of vaginas as holes and inverted scrotums as vaginas is to encourage delusion, appropriation, misogyny and male entitlement.

I don't care who that leaflet is aimed at - it is a total headfuck. The official but friendly tone is ghastly. It's gaslighting propaganda and I'm amazed that people have attempted to defend it. Can't you see how skewed it is towards MTTs and how disgusting it is towards FTTs??

[CoteDAzur]

"Transmen should be able call their own organs whatever they like (so long as they don't re-name mine)."

I don't agree. It makes about as much sense as if I wanted to rename my pancreas because I wasn't happy with it and expected everyone else to refer to it by some other name.

No, it's a pancreas.

And no, that's a vagina. That is the only name of that organ, regardless of which special snowflake person of which special gender it happens to be found in.

[Bitofacow]

The leaflet is for trans people. I am baffled as to why people go out of their way to read it and be outraged. It is manufactured horror. An excuse to be outraged, a touch of the Daily Fails I think.

[Ninasimoneinthemorning]

bito that's hardly the point is it? It's not a case of 'what you don't know doesn't hurt you'

[RufusTheSpartacusReindeer]

I do feel a bit sorry for the partner of a transperson who gets handed that leaflet

I absolutely understand what people are saying about it being intended to help the transperson but it does seem to be aimed at both sexual partners

[SmashingTurnips]

Bitofacow, see that just sounds to me like you are saying either that it is ok for trans people to be misogynistic because they are trans

Or

That it is expected for trans people to be misogynistic because they are trans.

And the rest of us should turn a blind eye and if we don't turn a blind eye to misogyny peddled through weird leaflets about transgenderism then we are faux outraged pearl clutchers.

The reason I care about this leaflet is because I think that one of the next areas that TRAs are going to bring their agenda to is sex education. Considering the increasing number of children who are being transed it seems only fair that school based sex education reflects that, right?

Just watch this space. I haven't googled this to see if it is already happening but I wouldn't be surprised if it were and if not it is only a matter of time.

[WaitrosePigeon]

I'm not a fucking cis woman. There's no such thing as a cis woman. The term is grossly offensive.

Yep.

[Bitofacow]

I am usually able to pick an opinion on anything. The whole trans issue is so sad. Damaged people fighting for an identity in a hostile world. Perhaps making some poor choices as they struggle to find what feels right. Words do matter but they also evolve and the language of trans has not had time to develop.
The wave of hostility and the absolute outrage does not seem to be entirely helpful in reaching a conclusion that is mutually beneficial.

[TealLove]

What a load of utter nonsense.
This rubbish is destroying the English language. This is seriously Orwellian stuff.

[Bitofacow]

English changes all the time, it evolves. It is a mongrel language and all the better for it. The flexibility of English is one of it's strengths.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I was look for information on trans education in schools and came across a guide put together by Mermaids (a UK charity) for a council on how to be inclusive and support transgender kids, things like how they must be allowed to use the toilets corresponding to their gender unless the trans person is uncomfortable with this, ditto on school trips should room share based on their gender unless transperson uncomfortable with this.

I found the two helpful scenarios at the end shocking interesting though:

Scenario 1
^My daughter doesn’t want a boy changing next to her,
what if he looks at her body?^

For example, in this scenario it would not be appropriate to remove the trans* person
from the changing rooms if a concern is raised by a parent or carer. In this situation, it
would be far more appropriate to look at offering an alternative changing arrangement
for the child who feels uncomfortable around the trans* person. A Human Rights
response would be to state that although the individual in question may have the
body of a boy, they are in every other respect a girl and as such have the right under
the Equality Act to change with the girls and to be treated fairly as such. It is the
responsibility of members of staff to support both trans* students and cisgendered
students to feel comfortable around one another.

Scenario 2
^It’s not fair that he enters the 100 metres race for girls
when he is a boy/Or Won’t she get injured playing rugby
with boys?^

Similarly, pupils or students who feel that a trans* child should not be involved in
certain sporting activities may themselves need to be supported to do a different
activity.
This kind of support acknowledges that some individuals may struggle to understand
trans* people or initially feel uncomfortable around them, but does not support the
idea that trans* people should be treated any differently to cisgendered people. The
responsibility lies with the individual who has the problem to deal with that problem,
not with the trans* person to accommodate for that person’s insecurity around them or their child"

www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/assets/media/East%2520Sussex%2520schools%2520transgender%2520toolkit.pdf

[SmashingTurnips]

Yeah lots of it is really sad.

Like young non feminine women who struggled with puberty and breasts and periods and being objectified as the sex class being told that they are men and that if they cut off their breasts, take testosterone and call their vaginas "holes" they will feel better and find their real authentic selves. That the problem is them not society.

And then some of these women detransition and tell stories that make you weep over their damaged bodies and their bravery.

Yeah it is sad. It is sad to tell women that their genitals are holes, that they are men because they fancy women and don't like wearing the trappings of femininity. It is so horribly sad.


I

[Triskaidekaphobic]

I do understand that this is a leaflet mainly aimed at trans people, but I appreciated the patronising comments from a poster questioning my comprehension levels so thanks for that. however, it is also for partners of trans people who may not be trans themselves. Why don't they get the courtesy of having their 'parts' given the correct names? Why does the definition of vagina only include trans women?

Also, as SmashingTurnips pointed out, it really is only a matter of time before this terminology creeps into schools. Would anyone be ok with their DD being told to use the term front hole and their clitoris is a dick, so as not to offend trans people whilst being told that trans women have a vagina?

It's pure appropriation. Women have been told publicly on many occasion that to talk about their vaginas and reproductive functions is trans exclusive and bigoted. As was mentioned above, see Martha plimpton being attacked and the protests about the vagina monologues. We have also had women being told by Julia Serrano that they should stop talking about their reproductive rights because it's trans exclusive. Even an event for women featuring cupcakes in the shape of Vulvas was shut down

But it's absolutely fine for a trans woman to use the term vagina. Ok then.

[SmashingTurnips]

And yes language changes and evolves.

Forgive me if I don't view vaginas being described as "holes" in sex education leaflets as particularly progressive however.

[TealLove]

Thank you smashing you said it perfectly!

Yes real nice progression of language there. Really helpful to humanity.

It's fucking destroying it and, in turn how we think. Words are important.