Only trans women have vaginas, women have 'front holes'

[Triskaidekaphobic]

That's according to this Guide to safer sex for trans people

VAGINA: We use this word to talk about the genitals of trans women who have had bottom surgery.”


FRONT HOLE: We use this word to talk about internal genitals, sometimes referred to as a vagina. A front hole may self-lubricate, depending on age and hormones.

FFS when is this madness going to end. Trans activists are attempting to appropriate or erase everything about being female.

I will never call my vagina a front hole, it's not a hole and tbh I find it grossly offensive to women to refer to it as such.

[SmashingTurnips]

Thank you.

Yeah language is important. We need it to form and express our thoughts.

Can you imagine a cheerful leaflet describing actual penises as "rape sticks" (or something equally man hating and horrible), the clitoris as "a penis" and people then saying stuff like "language evolves and trans people need language that describes their experience" ???

Somehow I can't quite.

Women have fuck front holes though and that's just dandy. Just realised that this leaflet is from the Whitman-Walker Clinic for crying out loud.

[Bitofacow]

And do you honestly think schools will just use this language? Ffs give teachers some credit. The language is wrong because it is evolving. But just jump up and down and ratchet the hysteria up and that with will help no end.

The point I was making was if everyone keeps calm we can reach a solution. Yes mistakes are being made but that is life.

No it is far more fun to make aggressive assertions and behave like oppressors. We aren't so don't act like we are. Moral high ground people. Restrain yourselves and be reasonabl, if they want to use the way term 'hole' let them it reflects far more on them - whoever 'they' are.

Shouting at each other or anyone plays into the hands of misogynists. Shrill, hysterical women can't control themselves.

[HermioneWeasley]

So it's OK to use hateful, misogynistic terms for women's bodies as long as it stays within the trans community?

Yeah, that sounds like it will work.

[user5318008]

A Human Rights response would be to state that although the individual in question may have the body of a boy

Many people who identify as trans are now rejecting that their bodies are their biological sex at all. Sophie Labelle who created the (appalling and hilarious in equal measures) web comic 'Assigned Male' for example created this lovely poster that you can buy in her web store.

65.media.tumblr.com/83bd1ea01414a98acbd0beef10fd21ce/tumblr_oc2eqm6uFq1tm163xo3_1280.jpg

Pigs will fly before this bullshit language stays in the trans community because transbians want to fuck female lesbians rather than each other for some strange reason.

[user5318008]

female lesbians. Just lesbians. All lesbians are female. Changed my mind between 'females' and 'lesbians' and ended up with both.

[PoppyAmex]

I was born a woman and that hasn't changed; I don't see why that needs to be qualified in any additional way.

How about we call transgendered women "non-cis" instead, seeing it's just "descriptive" and not insulting?

[Lightbulbon]

That leaflet is ludicrous!

It's talking about preventing pregnancy and uses the phrase 'person with an intact uterus'. Ffs just say a woman!!

[MissiAmphetamine]

I agree with what previous posters have said about how this leaflet is not just aimed at trans people, but at anyone who may have reason to interact with their genitals. I also agree with what previous posters have said about how the amount of self-loathing present if one can not even name one's vagina a vagina, is very concerning.

While I understand the point of the leaflet is to ensure safe sex for trans people, whose loathing or dissociation from their genitals prevents them from engaging, were the organs labeled properly, the exclusivity around vaginas and not penises, is unnecessary, and telling.

Why is it not "a vagina may belong to people of all genders," as they say with 'dick'?

Why do they say 'dick' instead of 'penis'but use the word 'vagina'and not a colloquial term as with dick?

Why is is called a 'front hole' when it could be both more accurate and marginally less offensive if called 'middle passage'?

Why, if penises can be female, as transactivists tell us, can vaginas not be male vaginas? (I suspect (internalised) misogyny is at play here.)

All up, it's badly thought out, innaccurate, unbalanced and inequal in male vs female genital descriptions, does affect more than just trans people (such as their doctors, partners, potentially their children,) and unnecessarily disparaging of female genitals.

[ageingrunner]

purplesagefem.wordpress.com/2016/09/02/safer-sex-guide-for-trans-people-is-unprofessional-and-unsafe/

The above blog post is very good I think, and explains some of the problems with the leaflet

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

I'm not a fucking cis woman. There's no such thing as a cis woman. The term is grossly offensive.
I agree, 100%

As much as it may not ring true with some, a vagina is female and so much more than a hole. I have no children and don't intend on having any, but my vagina is much more than a hole/cavity. Nobody born male can have one, despite surgery, regardless of what this pamphlet says. Any other rhetoric is cruel and delusional towards those who think otherwise

[mathanxiety]

We have a solution, Bitofacow.

It involves using the proper terms for the appropriate genitalia and not confusing sex which is a matter of biology with gender which is a hierarchical social construct.

It involves acceptance of the idea that you cannot 'feel like 'a woman' or 'feel like a man' because the implication that all women or all men are one or two dimensional cardboard cutouts is deeply disrespectful to all individual men and women. It is 'othering' brought to the Nth degree.

So you feel you are not a man? That doesn't mean you are a woman. Women are not 'Not Men'. You feel you are not a woman? That doesn't mean you are a man. Men are not 'Not Women'.

It is also a case of confusing surface level and socially conditioned attributes and even non essential elements such as clothing and shoes that are expressions of gender and confusing them with essential and innate elements - biological sex.

[mathanxiety]

If you think schools won't use this language, then look again at schools and remind yourself that teachers have absolutely no say in what codswallop they must support if they are told they must support it, from policing lunchboxes and telling children they can't bring cheese to school to teaching the transactivist agenda to small children.

www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/assets/media/East%20Sussex%20schools%20transgender%20toolkit.pdf
Read this carefully. This is the future.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this:
However, wherever possible, individuals should be given opportunities to say how they identify or describe themselves rather than labels being ascribed to them.

Cisgender Person – A person whose biological sex matches their gender. For example, a female sexed person who identifies with their female gender. In other words, it is a term for non-trans* people.

The massive irony of course being that if you object to being called 'cis-woman' you are a transphobe.

And if you point this out then you are a transphobe.

And you are told not to be hysterical when you correctly identify the way the wind is blowing and correctly point out that females as a class of people are being erased in law and in language by transactivists, a word whose origins lie in the Greek term for 'uterus'.

[mathanxiety]

Hysterical - a word whose origins lie in the Greek term for 'uterus'.

[mathanxiety]

Gender concerns your internal sense of self and how you choose to express yourself. Gender is considered by some to be a social construction, in that children learn how to behave in a manner deemed to be in line with their biological sex.

Wrong.

Gender refers to a hierarchical concept and a social and legal system that expresses that concept where men are superior and women are inferior. In a gendered society, all qualities ascribed to men are considered superior and all qualities ascribed to women are considered inferior. None of the qualities has ever been proven to be innate to ether men or women.

[MissiAmphetamine]

MathAnxiety Thank you for the link! I'll force myself to read it tonight as no doubt it will be very informative

Just from the bit you quoted though - it's interesting that their core definition of cisgender would imply that gender critical people, who believe gender is an externally imposed social construct and not an innate identity, are indeed not 'cisgender'.

I also worry how 'gender identity' is going to be taught to young, impressionable children. Surely it can only be done by cementing gender stereotypes even more strongly in their heads, which is just awful

[mathanxiety]

Here is an exhortation to schools in Brighton:
Ensure that the curriculum and in particular PSHE is used to challenge gender stereotypes, support the development of a positive sense of gender identity, develop understanding of trans* issues and prevent transphobia.

How much serious challenging of gender stereotypes was ever done in the interests of girls? Tell me again how girls fare in STEM subjects in university and in STEM careers? Remind me what problems they face trying to break into STEM areas?

When we don't really understand the concept of gender and the sort of effects the concept had and continues to have on girls, we write tripe like that.

And once again we see that until boys make a stink about something it will be ignored.

There is also a relationship between transphobia, homophobia and sexism. Sexist, sexual or transphobic bullying are the not the same as homophobic bullying. However, very often, sexist attitudes manifest themselves in homophobic bullying and any child or young person who is perceived as not expressing stereotypically masculine or feminine traits expected of their sex, might experience homophobic or transphobic bullying. Staff will need to use their professional judgement as to whether some incidents should be recorded as homophobic or transphobic, but take care not to under-record transphobia. Sexist, sexual or transphobic bullying may also occur in conjunction with other forms of bullying, such as racist bullying or bullying related to special educational needs or disabilities

Circling around sexism and the real meaning of gender again. Sexism consists of ascribing negative traits to members of one sex, and using those traits as insults. It also involves a sense of entitlement on the part of the dominant sex - entitlement to use of the labour and the genitalia of the second class sex and assumptions that the inferior sex are put on earth to serve the dominant one, without which role the second class sex is to be mocked and pitied. Sexism is a huge problem for those categorised as second best, namely half the world's population.

As an example, 'hysteria'' is something women are often accused of.

Schools are exhorted to allow:
Use of toilets/changing rooms appropriate to their gender identity rather than biological sex
Because obviously, some people's needs come before the needs of others, and those others should shut up and do as they have been conditioned to do for thousands of years.

And now we come to the real impact of all of this:
7.6
Changing rooms
The use of changing rooms by trans pupils and students should be assessed on a case-by- case basis in discussion with the trans pupils or student. The goal should be to maximise social integration and promote an equal opportunity to participate in physical education classes and sports, ensuring the safety and comfort, and minimising stigmatisation of the pupil or student. In most cases, trans* pupils or students should have access to the changing room that corresponds to their gender identity. This approach is underpinned by the Equality Act 2010, whereby refusing a child or young person access to the changing room of their true gender identity would constitute an act of discrimination.

Any pupil or student who has a need or desire for increased privacy, regardless of the underlying reason, should be provided with a reasonable alternative changing area, such as the use of a private area (eg a nearby toilet stall with a door, an area separated by a curtain, or a nearby office), or with a separate time to change (e.g. using the changing room that corresponds to their gender identity before or after other students). Any alternative arrangement should be provided in a way that protects the pupil or student’s ability to keep his or her trans* status confidential.^

And what of the girls?
The girls who want privacy?
The girls who might wish to be consulted about how their changing room looks and feels and who uses it?
The answer is as always:
'Shut up, girls. Your needs are always going to come second to those of boys and your opinions don't matter. You should already know this because you have been brought up in a world where facts of biology don't matter - it doesn't matter that your brain and your brother's brain have equal potential, it doesn't matter that your body could conceive and gestate and deliver a baby - and the only things that matter are the feelings of boys and men, who sit atop the hierarchy.'

This bullshit is the wave of the future, coming very soon to a school near you. Much sooner than you might like to think.

[Mummyoflittledragon]

Well said math. This is extremely worrying.

[mathanxiety]

MissiAmphetamine:
I also worry how 'gender identity' is going to be taught to young, impressionable children. Surely it can only be done by cementing gender stereotypes even more strongly in their heads, which is just awful

Nail on the head there, and that is really the crux of the matter.

We have to look gender squarely in the face and we have to tackle it head on, but we are being silenced by a shrill lobby shouting 'Transphobia!' at us for doing so.

[222CherryCoke]

Thanks for posting that, math. So much in it that's so worrying.

About a year ago, I saw an image making the rounds on Facebook of a little girl climbing a tree or something, getting dirty, being active, having fun. The caption was along the lines of "not a tomboy, not 'just like one of the boys', not 'not-a-girly-girl'. Just a girl. Being a girl. Climbing a tree." Right on, I thought.

In that Mermaids guide for schools, there is an illustration presumably done by a kid in one of the lgbtq groups that sponsored the guide. It says "I'm not a tomboy... I'm a boy!" It's such a chilling contrast in ideology, and this is now what's regarded as progressive, even feminist.

In the Mermaids guide, it's advised that students expressing concern about changing in front of transgendered classmates should be offered an alternative, such as a nearby toilet stall. math have you seen the Irish dept of education lgbtq guide? Here's how it advises the pubescent-girl-uncomfortable-with-penis-in-the-changing-room scenario is dealt with:

The use of toilet and changing facilities often
causes most debate around the inclusion
of transgender students. Other students
and their families may feel uncomfortable
with a transgender student using the same
gender-specific facilities. This discomfort
may be rooted in an unfounded assumption
of inappropriate behaviour on the part
of the student who is transgender and
consequently it is not a reason to deny access
to the transgender student. However, it is
important to address this discomfort and
to foster understanding of gender identity
in order to create a school culture that
respects and values all students and prevents
transphobic bullying.

Right. So, no alternative to offer, no validation of her right to privacy and to define her own boundaries, just re-education of the girl and/or her parents, who are presumed to lack "understanding of gender identity." As if the response to a child summoning the courage to say "I don't feel comfortable being naked with this person" should EVER be "let me explain why you're wrong to feel that way, and how you can do a better job of ignoring your personal boundaries in order to prioritise the comfort and approval of others."

[SmashingTurnips]

Yes, exactly. It's a blatant case of "girls move over and give up space to the boys because they matter"

Like this from ItsAllGoingToBeFine's quote from Mermaids.

It would be far more appropriate to look at offering an alternative changing arrangement for the child who feels uncomfortable around the trans* person.

[mathanxiety]

It's absolutely disgraceful 222CherryCoke. And you have described it all so well and all its implications.

And of course, girls in Ireland are all making things up when they allude to sexual assault, molestation, harassment, ogling.

This is after all the country where a woman was recently brutally murdered and has been rightly called an 'invisible woman' by a blogger holding mainstream journalism to task for their execrable reporting of the crime. It's the country where girls and young women were imprisoned for decades for the crime of being different, for not conforming to the rules, or often for the crime of being raped.

Wait until some girl gets impregnated by a 'transgirl' in a school changing room, or by a 'transwoman' in a public pool changing room, or in a women's psych ward or in the women's and children's section of a homeless shelter.

Then we'll see the 'progressives' tie themselves up in knots trying to explain it away.

[Mummyoflittledragon]

What I'm confused about is whether an anatomically male child would gender identify as female just to get access to the girls' changing areas and toilets. I find this whole situation extremely disturbing and question why the anatomically male child cannot change in the toilet instead of the girl being forced out of her safe space.

Shouldn't trans adults need to find their own safe space and not encroach on those of others - toilets/changing rooms etc? Shouldn't this also should apply to children with school staff ensuring the gender specific and trans children's safe spaces are maintained? I'm less clear about how toilets would be managed.

In some universities, all toilets are now gender neutral. I'm a bit on the fence about this one as I regularly used the men's in the student bar in the evening to avoid queues. But now that I'm a parent, I'm not happy with my DD going to university with gender neutral loos.

[HermioneWeasley]

mummy lots of High profile cases (though I think main,y in the states) of teenage males identifying as females and insisting on using the girls changing rooms, despite th protests of the girls - Lila Perry is one IIRC. There's a photo of Lila (who looks and sounds like the teenage boy they are) clearly with a semi erect penis under his silky skirt. And teenage girls are just supposed to shut up and get changed in front of them.

And Mermaids is a fucking sinister organisation.

[mathanxiety]

You would think this is the sensible solution, wouldn't you?

But since 'gender identity' (as opposed to medical transformation) is all about 'performing gender' - i.e. adopting what is often a quite grotesque and caricaturish version of mannerisms and clothing and personal appearance in general of the target 'gender' - an audience is required. Not just an audience - the target 'gender' must participate in the performance.

'Passing' requires the presence of people in the target gender. It requires complete acceptance and approval and validation from the target 'gender'. It requires complete pandering to the fantasy and suppression of all the intellectual and instinctive response of the target 'gender'. The target 'gender' must treat the interloper in the psych ward and the homeless shelter and the battered women's shelter and the school showers and the girls' basketball team as a member of the 'female gender' not just in theory but in practice. Otherwise an unspeakable act of transphobia is committed.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I suppose it would just be too simple to say 'Ensure that all parts of the curriculum are used to challenge gender stereotypes (yes, a thousand times yes-but just as important in the maths class or games lesson as PSHE), and support the development of a positive individual identity unconstrained by such stereotypes.'