Only trans women have vaginas, women have 'front holes'

[Triskaidekaphobic]

That's according to this Guide to safer sex for trans people

VAGINA: We use this word to talk about the genitals of trans women who have had bottom surgery.”

FRONT HOLE: We use this word to talk about internal genitals, sometimes referred to as a vagina. A front hole may self-lubricate, depending on age and hormones.

FFS when is this madness going to end. Trans activists are attempting to appropriate or erase everything about being female.

I will never call my vagina a front hole, it's not a hole and tbh I find it grossly offensive to women to refer to it as such.

I was a supporter of the Spartacus and spin off threads, but I think this is a step too far now. That leaflet was specifically designed for trans people discussing Dex and boundaries using language that they are comfortable with.
I am not happy with a transwoman being allowed to use female safe spaces - it could have a direct impact on me.
I am happy for a transman to call their vagina a front hole in the context of their own sexual relationship. It's got fuck all to do with me.

I'm angry about this thread.

I am happy for a transman to call their vagina a front hole in the context of their own sexual relationship. It's got fuck all to do with me.

I get that it's people's own bodies in the context of their own sexual relationships. In fact, since I first posted on this thread, I think my own view has modified a little. I don't get to tell people what they can call their own bodies, or what they can do with them.

But it really, really saddens me that there are women/trans men out there who despise their bodies enough to reduce their vaginas to holes. That is sad. And it doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens in a society that gives all women the message that we are lesser because of what's between our legs, and that what is between our legs is itself lesser and wrong.

No itcould I read it that a strapless was an actual penis. So, a woman would wear a strap on. A transwoman would have a strapless.

Yeah, I do think it's a bit bizarre. I would never refer to my vagina as a front hole. But they are not asking for that.

Also, the definition of hole is 'a hollow place'. My vagina is hollow. Could somebody explain why they find it so offensive, keeping the discussion respectful.

I am stunned that people think it is OK for vaginas to be called front holes in any context. It is so misogynistic.

No itcould. Men have penises. MTF have strap ons. According to that leaflets definition.

Why is calling the wonder that is a vagina a "hole" offensive??

Where to start...because the vagina is not a hollow place, it's more like a sheath, a flexible, elastic tube, which forms one part of the female sex organs. So if you would like to reduce the magnificently complex structure of the vagina, the vulva, the mons pubis, the clitoris, the labia and the cervix to a "hole", then be my guest. As you point out above, people get to call their bodies what they want. But I won't be joining you in that.

It's still a hollow sheath or tube.

Don't get me wrong, as I've already stated I would never call my vagina a front hole. But I don't have an issue with a trans person referring to their genitals as they wish.

I think the human body is fascinating. I don't think my vagina is any more wonderous than my kidneys.

Men have front holes too, on the end of their penises or straplesses, or shenises, or whatever they call them now.

A vagina is not hollow. And it is not a sheath. It is a birth canal.

And it is not their genitals they are referring to. It is ours.

No you're right scallops, sheath isn't the right word either.

But it's not just a birth canal either, I don't think.

I think the human body is a wonderful thing, all of it. But I give a special shout out to the female parts of it, because for 2000+ years they've been called dirty and shameful, so I'm redressing the balance.

It's really not ours they are referring toscallop.
A birth canal isn't right either - many women have chosen not to or are unable to get pregnant or give birth vaginally.

I think the point that's upsetting people is that they are using the word VAGINA only to refer to a mtf created one ie : only for trans women that have had the surgery to try to recreate one. They are referring to a real one as a front hole, which is pretty degrading.

Yes they are referring to our genitals. They are referring to a vagina as a front hole. A hole.

I agree birth canal isn't the right term either. I thought that after I wrote it. My point is that a vagina always seems to be defined in relation to men. What it does for men. And here are men renaming our genitals so they can feel better about themselves.

You are misunderstanding the purpose of the text scallops.
It is not proposing to use those terms for men and women (I will not use the dreaded 'cis' word here).
It is using the terms that trans people feel comfortable with using regarding their genitals.

And here are men renaming our genitals so they can feel better about themselves.

Why are we assuming it is men that have coined this term? This is presumably what some/most (although I'd absolutely assume not all) trans men use to describe their vaginas. Wouldn't it be their choice of word?

Yes. Its supposed to just be about what trans people might call their genitals. So my reaction is sorrow rather than anger at ftt who would prefer a 'front hole' to a vagina.

I'm not entirely happy about mtt appropriating 'vagina' - I think its the only instance of using a real biological term being appropriated. If 'front hole' is ok for ftt why dont they just use that too?

Agreed Errol, I think it would make much more sense to use a different term as they absolutely have appropriated vagina here.

I'll probably get flamed for this but I genuinely worry that people who are so affected by their body they are unable to use the correct term for an organ are not well enough at that point to be making long term choices. I am not for a second suggesting all teams people are ill; just that an acceptance of the current situation is the best way to prepare to move on psychologically in most circumstances. And I do wonder if this sort of language - which is most definitely misogynistic in tone, hole has been used as a derogatory word from men towards women for a long time - doesn't help reinforce the feeling there is some sort of shame attached.

It is a vagina. That's all the definition that's needed.
I do wonder what the medical profession would make of a group of people redefining "kidney" as "blood cleaner". Or insisting their feet be referred to as hooves. I'm not sure why its ok for sex organs but not anything else.

Middle orifice actually would be closer to the truth and less derogatory. It comes across to me as a way of expressing self loathing. That's not healthy.

I agree. If you have a vagina that's what you have. Renaming it a hole and a dick doesn't stop it being a vagina. Encouraging people to dissociate from their body parts cannot be good mental health practice surely?

Okay, I am out and proud as gender critical - see the "I am spartacus" threads. But I also have friends who work in public health. The target audience of this leaflet are (among others) FTT who may be so alienated from their own bodies that they don't want to talk about their vaginas - but they still need smear tests and the like. This is an attempt not at being PC, but at reaching out to these people. In the same way, there are leaflets aimed at "men who have sex with men" talking about aids prevention. These leaflets don't use the word "gay" because often these men are suffering from internalised homophobia, and refuse to think of themselves as gay even though they are having anal sex with men and putting themselves at risk of STDs. From the public health perspective, the important thing is to engage with them via whatever means it takes.

If this was a trans activist insisting that "cis" (sic) women referred to their vaginas as "front holes" so as not to trigger the trans community, I'd be outraged. But that is not the context of this leaflet.

And I think if we want to "win the war" rather than "win the battle", in the sense that we want to avoid a situation like some American states where misgendering becomes an offence legally, or self-identification becomes enough to gain the legal right to enter women's spaces, we have to be careful not to do what extreme TRAs typically do: namely take stuff out of context to generate offence and whip up a frenzy. By all means get outraged about a leaflet aimed at women which talks about pregnant persons - this is desperately important because the threat posed to access to abortion by the religious right (both in America and in NI where abortion is still illegal) is a women's rights issue, and we must not have the biological facts underlying our oppression obscured by trans-inclusive language. But don't go off on one about a leaflet aimed at the trans community which is using this language as an outreach technique to ensure that their discomfort with their biology doesn't stop them taking biologically necessary steps - contraception, protection against STDs, cervical smears.