Can someone explain the feminism - transgender clash...

[Puffinity]

...in a calm, non-ranty and non-sweary manner? Until very recently, my line of thinking was 'There are some men who feel like women (and vice versa). Fortunately, we are now open-minded enough as a society to accept this, and these people can have a sex change. Their bodies will then resemble their identity more closely and they will be happier for it.' Because of this, I was quite shocked at how anti-trans some feminists are. I am inclined to think there is more to it, and it is not as straightforward a question as it may seem. Can someone explain the issue in a bit more detail to me? I obviously understand the annoyance over banning the use of the word 'clitoris' for being offensive to transwomen (MtF) and could understand why some biological women (not sure what the correct lingo is) have problems allowing transwomen (MtF) who still have a penis into women-only (safe) spaces. But how many transwomen get upset over the use of words like clitoris and uterus? Surely most would just be relieved to have addressed their gender dysphoria and would want to get on with life? And how many transwomen (MtF) decide to keep their penis? Wouldn't it be wrong to exclude transwomen (MtF) from women-only activities? Shouldn't biological women who consider themselves feminists have some sympathy for other groups that are not treated equally in society? I am not trying to create a really heated debate, these are genuine questions I have. Having them answered will help me have a more informed opinion on the matter, which does seem to crop up more and more. Your views would be much appreciated!

Feminist4 you really need to take this up with Stonewall, not Mumsnet. They're the ones who are lumping trans people such as your daughter together with Karen White and others of that ilk, and advocating that they should have the same access to women's single sex provisions.
You're standing up for your daughter, I'm standing up for mine (and women like her). She is a vulnerable adult and Stonewall's position (and that of other trans activist bodies) threaten her safety. It's not a matter of judging your daughter, it's a matter of keeping secure procedures and spaces to protect women.

If you understand that women can do anything a man can do and vice versa, the ONLY difference between the sexes is due to reproductive class, or more crudely, genitaila.

Any definition of "woman" that ignores reproductive class is sexist nonsense.

Genitaila DOES define someone's reproductive class, more commonly known as sex. It DOES NOT define how they have to act, dress or "feel".

A woman is simply an adult human female. Nothing more nothing less.

Sorry Puffinity, Can you tell me what is transphobic about saying that Transgender women and men are not defined by their genitalia?

Adulthumancat, you are lumping my daughter in with a serial rapist. This is not acceptable. I don't lump all women in with Rosemary West. Trans Activists are fed up with this exclusion by feminists. I'm not a trans activist, I am a mother with three daughters (one is transgender). She is as much one of the sisterhood as any other woman and shouldn't be excluded.

feminist4
I am interested in understand8ng why you think we have separation between men and women in for example a rape crisis centre? Do you think all men are rapists?

Because men are men and transgender women are women. They are raped by men, why would they want to go to a rape crisis centre for men when they are women?

If one accepts Stonewall's definition, which encompasses cross dressers who self identify as trans (the clue is in the word self) then Karen White, Davina Ayrton, Jessica Winfield, Lisa Hauxwell et al are transwomen.

That's not me saying they are (I think that position is a reductio ad absurdum of the whole concept of self ID); that's Stonewall.

I repeat an earlier poster: you don't like being lumped in with these people - take it up with Stonewall, not with us. Not our circus, not our monkeys. (Just like making the world safe for biologically male individuals who are at risk from other biologically male individuals is not our circus, not our monkeys.)

And what is a woman

Please answer that’s question with some sensitivity for the womenon her who have been raped by men who have told them they are to be trusted, that they would never harm the woman because they love them so much

ANd to answer your question, because they are not actually women?

Where I use the term to mean adult human female , in line with dictionary and the biological scientific definitions

I don't imagine Ian Huntley or Karen White are visiting rape crisis centres in the near future.

Hello Feminist4. I wasn't lumping your "daughter" in with anyone. All I was saying was that as your "daughter" was born male, they will become a man. That's because the sex class of your "daughter" is male, and it cannot be changed.

Because your "daughter" is male, they do not belong in spaces reserved for women and girls. Girls are juvenile human females and women are adult human females.

Men do not belong in women's spaces because they pose a risk to females. This does not mean that every male is a rapist, simply that some of them are. Women cannot rape as they do not have penises (or is that penii?).

I'm sorry that your "daughter" cannot feel comfortable in their body. I'm am positive that in actual fact their body is perfect exactly as it is. Only in in the current client climate would we be encouraging mutilation of a healthy child. It's a travesty.

Your son can be or do whatever he wants to be or do... The thing he can't do is mutate into a female human. It's cruel to pretend otherwise.

So my daughter will have to go to the male section wherever it is separated into Male or Female? Is that what you are saying? She won't be able to access a rape crisis centre - unless it is the male facilities?

Why would your child be against getting specialist support from a trans facility, where she could have trans counsellors who really, really understood her lived experience helping her?

Why are you so binary?

Because there will never be enough transgender facilities for transgender women. How many rape crisis centres do you imagine there will be for transgender women?

If transgender people aren't happy accessing facilities provided for their biological sex then isn't it up to transgender people to fight for their own facilities?

I would be very surprised if there were no rape crisis centres for men. Why couldn't your "daughter" access those if they needed to? Other vulnerable men would have to... Why should women make an exception in your "daughter's" case?

My daughter is not a man. How dare you suggest she use a man's rape crisis centre. That is so cold and heartless. There will never be enough facilities for transgender men and women. Transgender women are women!

Pointed out to you on another thread, several times, Transgender Activism has funding that women can only dream of. They have political power women can only dream of. Organisations are falling over themselves to be sensitive and meet needs. Third spaces could easily be commanded in law, it's an easy campaign and you'd have a lot of support. .

the myth of money. What a joke.

Ok, if you say so.

By what reasoning do you come to the conclusion that your offspring, born a male, is now a woman?

There would be enough trans facilities if transwomen actually went and opened them. Like women did.

Rather than bitch and blame women. Like men do.

There would be enough trans facilities if transwomen actually went and opened them. Like women did.

Rather than bitch and blame women. Like men do.

There will never be enough facilities for transgender men and women. Transgender women are women!

Why not? I'm not saying it would be easy to create those facilities, but it absolutely could be done. I'm 100% certain that many feminists, like myself, would support the campaigns, sign petitions, even donate money in order to create services specialised for transpeople.

Imagine what feminists and TRA could achieve if we worked together. If we could all acknowledge that male trans people are not the same as females, that in some circumstances sex-segregated facilities are needed. That we can respect someone's gender identity, without believing that they can change sex, or that someone can be a 'woman in a male body'.

If females weren't constantly having to fight to name and define ourselves, and assert our own boundaries, then all that effort (and money!) could deal redirected.

But while we are being told that male-bodied people are the same as us, that there is no important difference, and that we cannot name the class of people with female biology... While that is the case, that is where the fight must be.

Myth? Fact. Trans organisations are very well funded.

Why not? I'm not saying it would be easy to create those facilities, but it absolutely could be done. I'm 100% certain that many feminists, like myself, would support the campaigns, sign petitions, even donate money in order to create services specialised for transpeople.

Now, maybe five years ago I would have done. But now. Meh. No. So many TRAs have been so threatening, and genuinely violent towards women that you know what... no I don't think I would bother myself. Plenty of worthier causes to get involved in. I wouldn't wish any person any harm, but nope, when it comes to support... they are now on their own. Because of what they have chosen to do.

Plenty of other stuff I can put my effort into - food banks, women's refuges, refugees, army benevolent fund, all sorts of stuff that I care about.

Everyone is talking about the self id bill, talk at odds all you like but the self id bill is what matters because the self id bill is what lumps your daughter in with Karen White et al.

Of course it’s transphobic to deny that a trans woman was born male. Some will have lived whole lives as men, been sons and brothers and husbands and fathers before transitioning, how transphobic to erase that very valid part of their life and to deny their transition experience by claiming they are of the same group as natal women.

When it comes to sex we are absolutely defined by the gentials we are born with. You think any rapist will gaf when a trans man says they are a man, like the very case that occurred last year when a trans man tried to plead that to a rapist that defined him by his vagina and used that against him. Women are defined by others identifying our sex all the time. How we identify ourselves matters not a fuck as any man has greater strength and can use our biology against us to control us. So we are definitely defined by the gentials we are born with. As those gentials, resulting for sex specific chromosome define a number of health issues for each sex class. Our identity isn’t a get out jail free card when it comes to biology.