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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Can someone explain the feminism - transgender clash...

230 replies

Puffinity · 03/06/2016 21:42

...in a calm, non-ranty and non-sweary manner? Until very recently, my line of thinking was 'There are some men who feel like women (and vice versa). Fortunately, we are now open-minded enough as a society to accept this, and these people can have a sex change. Their bodies will then resemble their identity more closely and they will be happier for it.' Because of this, I was quite shocked at how anti-trans some feminists are. I am inclined to think there is more to it, and it is not as straightforward a question as it may seem. Can someone explain the issue in a bit more detail to me? I obviously understand the annoyance over banning the use of the word 'clitoris' for being offensive to transwomen (MtF) and could understand why some biological women (not sure what the correct lingo is) have problems allowing transwomen (MtF) who still have a penis into women-only (safe) spaces. But how many transwomen get upset over the use of words like clitoris and uterus? Surely most would just be relieved to have addressed their gender dysphoria and would want to get on with life? And how many transwomen (MtF) decide to keep their penis? Wouldn't it be wrong to exclude transwomen (MtF) from women-only activities? Shouldn't biological women who consider themselves feminists have some sympathy for other groups that are not treated equally in society? I am not trying to create a really heated debate, these are genuine questions I have. Having them answered will help me have a more informed opinion on the matter, which does seem to crop up more and more. Your views would be much appreciated!

OP posts:
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Feminist4 · 14/10/2018 11:22

Where do you get your assertion that there are transgender women who do not want to be women from? Karen White is a violent criminal as was Rosemary West. Don't put her into your discussion on transgender rights. By implication you are suggesting transgender women are violent rapists. This is unacceptable. My daughter does not want to be categorised as different. She was ta to be accepted by women as a woman.

MsBeaujangles · 14/10/2018 11:22

What I don't understand is......

Some provisions are designed to be segregated according to sexed bodies because sexed bodies are significant in these contexts (eg changing rooms, hospital wards etc.)

Why is it hateful, bigoted and phobic to want to exclude male bodied people who identify as women and not male bodied people who don't.

I don't think any a male bodied person who identifies as a woman/female is any more or less risk than any male bodied person who doesn't. I have nothing against those that do/don't identify as women, I just want go into some spaces content in the knowledge that I will only encounter female bodied people.

I am saddened that people spin this to create a story of hatred, causing unnecessary upset to trans people, when there is no hatred.

Trans people are troubled and vulnerable people. Spinning lies about non existing hatred toward them is hideous!

theOtherPamAyres · 14/10/2018 11:24

Is this a reverse? AIBU?

Leave the bastard. Cheeky Fucker!

kesstrel · 14/10/2018 11:28

By implication you are suggesting transgender women are violent rapists.

No, it's saying that at least one self-identified transgender woman is a violent rapist. No more, no less.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/10/2018 11:29

By implication you are suggesting transgender women are violent rapists. Ah! So you really are not posting in good faith at all! I see.

I very clearly said Not all trans women are dangerous, nobody here has said so (except people trying to impute that to MN posters) And look, there you go!

And you daughter (if she exists) should be supported in live in as a trans woman, if that is what she wants. But she cannot be a woman - adult human female - as she has the wrong genes! Her lived experience as a trans woman is a valid one, why not accept that?

Feminist4 · 14/10/2018 11:39

Of course I'm posting in good faith. I think that as a woman with free daughters, one of whom is a transgender daughter, I can see the harm and damage being done by those women who keep saying she is a man.

Feminist4 · 14/10/2018 11:39

Three not free

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/10/2018 11:42

So, no apology for completely misrepresenting me?

No attempt to engage with me honestly?

No? Pshaw!

MsBeaujangles · 14/10/2018 11:42

Feminist 4.

She is different to natal women though. It is ludicrous to think or suggest otherwise. In most contexts those differences are irrelevant, in done they are highly significant.

To suggest or believe that wanting to attend to those differences is hateful is crazy, and damaging to everyone.

Feminist4 · 14/10/2018 11:47

I was referring to the group of radical feminists on Mumsnet rather than you personally. There are tooany who laugh at the misfortunes of transgender women and demonstrate transphobia

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/10/2018 11:50

No you weren't! You responded specifically to my post and my having included Karen White.

Don't back peddle. Have the courage of your convictions and discuss this openly, honesty. that is all women have been trying to do here and on many other places.

If you have seen posters openly demonstrating transphobia show us... and we will join you in reporting it to MNHQ and having it removed!

Feminist4 · 14/10/2018 12:09

Yes. Karen White is a violent criminal. It is offensive to define all transgender women as potentially dangerous because one is. I’m nothing like Rosemary West and would be insulted to be grouped in with her. The board with bogus stats on transgender violence in prisons has many offensive posters in my opinion. But they don’t see it as offensive.

MsBeaujangles · 14/10/2018 12:17

It is offensive to define all transgender women as potentially dangerous because one is

It is offensive to judge anyone because of the behaviours of others. M

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/10/2018 12:18

See, you are doing it again!

If you can't make your point without having to traduce a poster then you don't have a valid point to make.

MsBeaujangles · 14/10/2018 12:24

Posted too soon.

I know far more lovely, kind, considerate men than men who present a physical or sexual threat to women. This doesn't mean I think sex segregated provision (determined by sexed bodies) isn't necessary. I also don't think that other women not wanting my lovely dad, brothers or male friends allowed in is because they think they are a threat.

I fear that you, and many others who come here are filtering for hate (probably with positive intentions) and seeing it where it isn't. I think this is likely to cause unnecessary hurt and anger which should be reserved for genuine hate and abuse.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/10/2018 12:26

I think this is likely to cause unnecessary hurt and anger which should be reserved for genuine hate and abuse. Absolutely!

Trousered · 14/10/2018 13:49

The fragility we are now required to manage is worrying. Honestly women are getting it in the neck from all sides.

Male violence - women's fault.
Male mental health - women's fault.

Feck off.

Feminist4 · 14/10/2018 16:41

So if it isn't the threat posed by transgender women (which other posters have said) then why not include a marginalised vulnerable group who have transitioned?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/10/2018 16:46

Nope! You're going to have to type that again...

If it isn't a threat posed by transgender women... then why not include a marginalised vulnerable group who have transitioned?

I can't make head nor tail of that!

VMisaMarshmallow · 14/10/2018 16:51

How transphobic to deny the lived reality of trans women by denying they are biologically male.

The self id law allows all males complete access to all women spaces, including all violent males out there and those violent males who are trans women, they maybe the minority of trans women but the law will mean all biological males have avces to women’s safe spaces.

Feminist4 · 14/10/2018 16:56

I'm not taking about self ID. What about a transgender woman who has transitioned. She is female, vulnerable and needs the same support. She is not a threat.

Feminist4 · 14/10/2018 16:59

Some people here are saying it's not about the potential threat of transgender women and other posters are saying that it is the threat Of violence by transgender women. Can't you agree?

Feminist4 · 14/10/2018 17:01

It's hardly trsnsphobic to say that it is not their birth genitalia that defines them and you know that. It is trsnsphobic to suggest it does define them like the trsnsphobia on this board

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/10/2018 17:06

Oh! Well you have still ignored 99% of my post, so presumably you have missed the many reiterations of that!

TRAs not transgender individuals were the focus of feminist ire.

Now women are refusing to collude in the polite lie that transwomen are women, or vulnerable, or in need of the same support. They have become a threat solely due to TRA actions, and all the now more public reportings of the myriad of things that would never happen.

As more organisations start to act as though Self ID is already a reality more women are threatened in a very real manner. You cannot deny the facts behind Karen White.

Why should women continue to be nice when 'transitioning' doesn't mean anything any more - see Stonewall's definition of transwoman?

As it stands a transitioned man will just be a man who says he feels like being a woman. That is how many organisations are acting right now or are being forced to act - see Canada etc etc

You cannot expect women not to shout STOP!!!! This cannot continue, there has to be a proper risk assessment, a proper consultation. Some REAL thought given to the dangers that common sense tell you WILL exist - mainly because there are enough, recent examples to point at!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/10/2018 17:09

It's hardly trsnsphobic to say that it is not their birth genitalia that defines them and you know that Bollocks! Quite literally!

Women and girls don't have them.

And that is after disentangling another of your double negative type statements!