Can someone explain the feminism - transgender clash...

[Puffinity]

...in a calm, non-ranty and non-sweary manner? Until very recently, my line of thinking was 'There are some men who feel like women (and vice versa). Fortunately, we are now open-minded enough as a society to accept this, and these people can have a sex change. Their bodies will then resemble their identity more closely and they will be happier for it.' Because of this, I was quite shocked at how anti-trans some feminists are. I am inclined to think there is more to it, and it is not as straightforward a question as it may seem. Can someone explain the issue in a bit more detail to me? I obviously understand the annoyance over banning the use of the word 'clitoris' for being offensive to transwomen (MtF) and could understand why some biological women (not sure what the correct lingo is) have problems allowing transwomen (MtF) who still have a penis into women-only (safe) spaces. But how many transwomen get upset over the use of words like clitoris and uterus? Surely most would just be relieved to have addressed their gender dysphoria and would want to get on with life? And how many transwomen (MtF) decide to keep their penis? Wouldn't it be wrong to exclude transwomen (MtF) from women-only activities? Shouldn't biological women who consider themselves feminists have some sympathy for other groups that are not treated equally in society? I am not trying to create a really heated debate, these are genuine questions I have. Having them answered will help me have a more informed opinion on the matter, which does seem to crop up more and more. Your views would be much appreciated!

I think a very very small proportion of the totally trans community are vocal activist. I know two, and both of them keep their heads down and get on with life. Neither draw any attention to being trans and would rather people assume they were born women. I don't actually know what sort of surgery they've had.
If a conversation about periods came up, they would keep quiet in the same way my friend with chronic anorexia would. Neither would start screaming discrimination because they can't join in...

Yet the only blogs and articles we see are ones by people calling for the renaming of female bodily functions so as not to offend transwomen

Am I right in thinking that many feminists do not have issues with men who have undergone a full sex change and live as women?

I don't have a problem with any individual living how they want to.

Personally my issue with some transactivisits and a lot of the trans narrative is the idea of 'living like a woman'. What is 'living like a woman'? We're all different, we all have different tastes, preferences, hobbies, talents etc. Some women like to wear heels, some prefer jeans.

If you look at what MTT people say, they often refer to stereotypes. 'I knew I was trans because I wanted to wear dresses/play with dolls/wear make up'. It's a story that goes 'I was born an x, but I want to do y things, so I must really be a y.' And with that ' if you're not trans, then you must be happy to do the things associated with your sex.' Like many women, I'm not particularly happy being treated as a woman. I'd quite like equal pay, no sexism and better conviction rates for crimes against women.

The trans narrative seems to me to perpetuate sexist stereotypes. I'd much rather say 'You're male because of your genetic makeup and sexual organs, and actually you'll never be able to really, truly change that. (Not in our lifetime anyway). But you can still wear what you want, do what you want, be interested in whatever you want.'

I think we (everyone) should be fighting to make it acceptable for men to wear makeup and dresses if they want. We shouldn't be pretending that someone born xy is the same as someone born xx.

I am a radical feminist (though quite a tired one). I really reject this idea that that makes me anti-trans. As I said upthread, I have problems with some aspects of trans theory and trans activism. This is logically consistent with my theory and politics around gender in other areas (again, I have doubts that about 'born that way' in gay activism, though as I'm gay I generally get away with saying that).

I'm genuinely sad that my political analysis puts me at odds with so many trans activists. I would rather that wasn't the case, because I think our struggles have much in common and we should be acting in solidarity with each other. But I've been a feminist activist for 35 years and I'm not going to suddenly start believing in a 'female brain' because some NUS women's officer tells me I have to. It just doesn't fit with how I understand the world. That doesn't mean I'm personally or politically hostile to trans people.

I must say, though, I think this will all die down soon. I lived through the feminist 'sex wars' of the 80s, and loads of sectarian spats since. I also think the trans movement is very new and in many ways similar to how lesbian and gay activism was in the 80s, before it got all grown up and sophisticated. We'll all move past this.

'I think we (everyone) should be fighting to make it acceptable for men to wear makeup and dresses if they want. '

Why? All the huge problems in the world. Who cares if men can wear dresses or not. They're just dresses.

There is quite a lot of fetishisation that goes with trans women. Someone on a thread once had a delve into the trans forums, and the dominant themes were of men who were turned on by wearing women's clothes, being called a woman, being in women's spaces etc
Which also explains the overly sexualised appearance many many transwomen adopt.

But this does also mean there is a disconnect on what the two groups value.
If you have always craved and longed for a man to assume you are a woman and wolf whistle you, then you are going to have a very different take on the problem of women being harassed in public (or even in changing rooms)
If your idea of 'being a woman' is girls nights in doing each other's hair and make up, then you are going to over obsess on missing out of talking about boys and periods

I'm not anti trans. But I am pro facts. Men aren't women. apparently that's hate speech now.

I have swayed back and forth on the transgender issues because from my own personal beliefs there is a difference beyond physically and socially between being a woman and being a man although I have read enough threads and links on threads on MN to know this is not a widely held view on here. I do believe there are genuine transgender folk in the world and I would hate for people to be marginalised because they do not fit in a gender/sex box.

However I am terrified by the wider reprecussions these ill thought out changes in law might have as they become more widespread. I also do not think that womankind should be sidelined as we figure out reasonable accommodations and move to a more accepting world which seems to be happening on a pretty scary scale.

Stolen from another thread but this is the sort of shit that gets people's backs up:

http://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/06/03/german-ladyfest-clitoris-exclusionary/

And radical, Hermione

The one thing that bugs me, is that with anything changing in society it's always women who are put further down the ladder, so others can get higher up.

You would never hear someone telling a man he can't call his penis a penis, in case it offends transmen. Most men would tell you fuck off plain and simple at that

Yet women are expected to put up and shut up and remember where we stand in society

I just don't subscribe to the whole gender binary - men are like this, women are like that. I think all people can have so-called feminine qualities, and so-called masculine qualities.

Assigning a gender to people based on their biological sex represses them, and does not enable them to reach their full potential. I believe this affects men, as well as women, although historically, and still, statistically, women are more likely to be disadvantaged, certainly financially, by the gender assigned to them.

As a woman, I have no idea what it feels like to be a woman. I don't know which part of feeling like me is the woman bit, iyswim. And yet trans women say they do.

If I were an alien life form, how would you explain to me which adult humans were women, and which were men?

The crux of it for me is this: what does it MEAN to say you're a woman, if you're not allowed to make any reference to female physiology, reproductive potential or experience, or material lived experience? What exactly is it that we are saying means you are a woman? Very often, trans women refer to wanting to be with other women, wear women's clothes etc - and I understand that they may do this, at least in part, because they feel forced to justify themselves and this is most easily done by referring to gender stereotypes.

My understanding of my gender identity is that it stems from life experiences which are based in my female physiology. That means I am forced to experience myself and the world through the prism of a social construction of gender. I have a shared gender identity with other women based on us sharing life experience shaped by that social construction - NOT because we share a 'female brain'.

If anybody wants to join the club, they are very welcome. I'm sure I have much to learn from trans people about how gender works, based on their experience. But their experience is not my experience, and it's odd to get called a TERF when I acknowledge that.

Why? All the huge problems in the world. Who cares if men can wear dresses or not. They're just dresses.

We could solve some of the problems of the world by making it a fairer place for little boys (and consequently the men they grow in to although ideally men would actually help us out on this one).

I understand why many women are pretty scathing about the freedom to self decorate without fear of social punishment, this being one of the few freedoms that women have and men don't. But to little boys, who have very few choices about what happens in their lives, this can seem enormous. An area of choice and freedom for their sisters and female friends that isn't available to them and in the childhood world of few freedoms I think this can make many of them feel desperately sad.

Having read an awful lot written by trans people or people who are questioning whether they might be trans this comes up a lot. Little boys desperately wishing that they could wear the sparkly hair clip or the ruffly skirt but being shamed for trying to or asking to. Many interpret this as a sign they are female when in fact it's just a sign that a lot of children of both sexes like sparkly, fluffy, pretty things. If we repeatedly enforce the message that these are "girl things" then is it any wonder that so many boys and men who are attracted to them might begin to think they must be girls for wanting to wear them?

And frankly, this idea that liberal feminists = lovely and accepting and radical feminists = transphobic only persists because radical feminism has a THEORY of gender. I think liberal feminism's theory of gender is pretty shallow and often boils down to 'we've all been terribly old fashioned about this but I'm sure we can play nicely if we just remember our manners'.

If ONLY dresses were just dresses!

not all feminists are anti trans. Liberal feminists and Queer feminists tend to be inclusive and sympathetic of trans and non binary people

Just wanted to reiterate what dione said.

These threads always go the same way. Quick reference to the vast majority of transwomen who just want to get on with their lives. Endless discussion about the very vocal minority.

'is it any wonder that so many boys and men who are attracted to them might begin to think they must be girls for wanting to wear them?'

Yes. It is utterly bizarre to think that. I sometimes wanted to wear the clothing of other cultures. It didn't make me believe I must therefore really be from a different culture. That would be insane.

And the notion that women and girls have more freedom to 'self decorate' is bollocks. Women and girls' appearance is heavily policed.

I think these sectarian spats are often quite divorced from how people rub along in real life, WhenSheWasBad. I've never actually argued with a trans person in real life, just as I happily co-exist with liberal feminists and Blairite lefties

Dione said OP, not all feminists are anti trans

Are any feminists anti trans? They are anti some of the extreme trans activist views, not anti trans.

On another subject - I read a thread on MN by a person who uses a wheelchair which mentioned some of the rude/ verging on abusive treatment she receives from strangers in daily life. How can that be legal but laws are to be passed to protect the wishes and beliefs of trans people?

But this thread DID ask about the clash...

I don't have any issue with what an individual wants to wear or be called, or do to their own body.

What I do resent is the idea that wearing a dress, make up and/or being called Susan is what makes someone a woman. I'm not going to be brainwashed/shouted down to say, yes, that person with a penis and XY chromosomes is a woman. That's just silly. I don't recognise the idea that there is an inherent sense of being a woman or man, people just exist. Can't a kid want to wear a dress/be a princess/paint their nails/have short hair/play with trains without it meaning anything beyond that is what they like. Some days my daughter wants to be a boy. Some days she wants to be a cat. She's never going to be either. I shudder when I hear of 3 year olds being described as having signs of gender dysphoria.

I don't understand why someone can say "actually I'm a woman and I need to be fully acknowledged as such" and that seen as a physical condition, whereas if I was to say "I'm actually Chinese, despite my white appearance, and I need to be treated as such and allowed access to specialist services for Chinese people" people would see that as a psychiatric, psychological or personality issue.

Women still face so many social challenges, I don't want to see our rights and safety chipped away at by misguided legislation or social movements. I don't think that people who genuinely believe they are the opposite sex to their physical one and who completely commit to that pose a physical risk, and I have huge sympathy for their distress. But that doesn't mean that I think any man should be able to access women's toilets, services, communal changing rooms etc just by saying "today I'm a woman" - and some of the legal moves being promoted would allow that. It's already happening.

I think it's disingenuous to frame this as feminists/transgender, and I think that is done deliberately to obfuscate the real debating points as so many people dislike feminism and "feminists" and so are quite willing to discount any questioning of the trans narrative as feminist ranting.
Some women have issues with the idea that being a woman is a feeling. Some don't.
Some feminists see transwomen as women as much as natal women and ate happy to include them in their feminism. Some arent.

My personal perspective is I am uncomfortable with aspects of the transgender movement.
I feel I am a woman only because of biology. Take away periods/boobs/a life dominated by pregnancy (being pregnant/trying to be pregnant/trying not to be pregnant) and I don't think there is much to separate me from any other man or woman.
I also believe women are disadvantaged because they give birth.
I think the concept of women's brains being different has been used historically as a reason why women can't vote/own property/be engineers etc etc so I am fundamentally opposed to the concept of a female brain, especially in the absence of credible scientific support for such a thing.
And I think there are predatory men out there (not transgender) who are more than happy to exploit any possible opportunity to sexually offend against women. I think these men would find it a breeze to put on a dress and say "I feel like a woman" to help them do that. The new gender identity laws open the door for them at the expense of women's rights not to be sexually assaulted by men.
Finally I am very uncomfortable about the current phase of children identifying as transgender at a young age. I don't like the idea they sign up for a lifetime of medical treatment for a condition they may grow out of, that impacts their later fertility and has side effects that we are unaware of.

Felascloak's post perfectly sums up the main issues.

Also it concerns me with 'trans' kids that it is basically eugenics being carried out on gay kids.

Yes. It is utterly bizarre to think that. I sometimes wanted to wear the clothing of other cultures. It didn't make me believe I must therefore really be from a different culture. That would be insane.

It is utterly bizarre, you're right but it is happening. People are interpreting these experiences through the lens of transgenderism as the concept is currently understood.

And the notion that women and girls have more freedom to 'self decorate' is bollocks. Women and girls' appearance is heavily policed.

I think we'll have to disagree here in some respects although I do acknowledge that women and girls appearance is heavily policed.

I don't believe that is what is happening.

Very many children are experiencing gender dysphoria because of a complex range of issues happening in our society and the way adults are interacting with them.

It has very little to do with kids going, 'I like dresses that means I am a girl.'