Can someone explain the feminism - transgender clash...

[Puffinity]

...in a calm, non-ranty and non-sweary manner? Until very recently, my line of thinking was 'There are some men who feel like women (and vice versa). Fortunately, we are now open-minded enough as a society to accept this, and these people can have a sex change. Their bodies will then resemble their identity more closely and they will be happier for it.' Because of this, I was quite shocked at how anti-trans some feminists are. I am inclined to think there is more to it, and it is not as straightforward a question as it may seem. Can someone explain the issue in a bit more detail to me? I obviously understand the annoyance over banning the use of the word 'clitoris' for being offensive to transwomen (MtF) and could understand why some biological women (not sure what the correct lingo is) have problems allowing transwomen (MtF) who still have a penis into women-only (safe) spaces. But how many transwomen get upset over the use of words like clitoris and uterus? Surely most would just be relieved to have addressed their gender dysphoria and would want to get on with life? And how many transwomen (MtF) decide to keep their penis? Wouldn't it be wrong to exclude transwomen (MtF) from women-only activities? Shouldn't biological women who consider themselves feminists have some sympathy for other groups that are not treated equally in society? I am not trying to create a really heated debate, these are genuine questions I have. Having them answered will help me have a more informed opinion on the matter, which does seem to crop up more and more. Your views would be much appreciated!

If trans people can have their own groups then surely cis people can argue that they can too?

No "cis people" (women, you don't think they'd actually try to do this to men?) won't be able to argue this. By pandering and using the word "cis" they are accepting the role that transactivists have made for them, that of a terrible oppressor group who should be grateful for their lives and STFU. And they can use all the social justice rhetoric that you would normally find applied to white people or straight men to get that message across.

Thanks Betty - that's interesting about the American aspect. I think Americans are often more vocal about everything, which can be bad and good but is obviously bad here. I can't believe it could have got into the press!? Madness!

That's a good way to put it venus. I am pretty much on board with opposing it, I guess I've just had a strong does of female conditioning that makes me want to find some sort of common ground where it can be found. But as I said here or on the ladyfest thread it does seem that giving common ground is just a give an inch type of move.

Oh it did! BIG press. The whole thing was terrifying for me because i was worried that my position could be interpreted at anti trans or homophobic even, and that would be my career over.

Everything you said almond , came to pass. Even makes me wonder whether you were in our group ;) Male journos joined in, saying how unfair it was that us females had a secret group (!)

Anyway, im thread derailing i'm sure, so i'll shut up about it now

You're not derailing at all. Your experience is very relevant to the OP's original question.

My last post makes me sound as if i'm a journo. Just like to point out that im not.

Thanks venus.

But as I said here or on the ladyfest thread it does seem that giving common ground is just a give an inch type of move.

It is. Because a significant amount of men, both trans and non-trans, who do this sort of thing are just shit stirring, and closet misogynists. It's classic gaslighting, boundary violating behaviour.

I used to consider my self a trans ally but now I realise that there is a lot to be said about the old adage "give an inch and they take a mile".

Now I firmly believe that women are born with vaginas. I still have a lot of sympathy for trans but they can fight their own battles as Feminism has enough to be doing with fighting for the rights of women without adopting other causes. Maybe men can fight for trans rights?

betty I'm raging on your behalf. I didn't mean to imply that you should have put yourself at risk, just that if all women together said "nah, not buying it" then there wouldn't be much men could do. It's like women perpetuating FGM - I don't know why we do it to each other?

Betty, I definitely was not in the group!

I've just the way these things are discussed by trans allies so many times.

When the boy who liked to wear dresses but had never said he was a girl wanted to join the U.S. Girl Scouts, U.S. men on my FB said there shouldn't be any girls' and women's organisations anyway.

The point of all this is to shut women up, isn't it? The men supporting all this don't care about trans people. They just want to stop women organising.

I'd forgotten just how angry I was about the whole thing hermoine, it's just such a pisstake. I should have been more vocal but it blew up so quickly, i just retreated. Which is shameful but the language used in these arguments and how it can be used against you...well i'm no Germaine Greer and i've a mortgage to pay so easier to back down. Reflecting on that makes me so angry.

The subtext to all male commentary on the issue was definitely 'thank fuck that powerful female group has been dismantled' and a further subtext 'this is why women can't be professional, they just squabble like school girls'. So you are bang on there almond.

betty it is not up to you to end your career over this. Don't apologise for not wanting to be bullied.

Fuckers.

The latter vestal they were biologically male but identified as trans but not as women. It created a big divide (and a MAHOOSIVE argument that went on for weeks) between those of us, like me that felt that as our group name explicitly contained the words 'for women', that identifying as a woman should be essential for membership. And of course those who felt we were bigots for feeling that way. I'm not anti-trans but if a club is exclusively for women then it should be for people who identify as women, to my mind.

What the ....

This must be the zombie apocalypse.

Letting trans"women" join your group because they say they identify as women, is already incredibly generous.

There is no rational reason AT ALL to let trans-non-binary join. It's a Women's Group, not a Non-Men group.

And after they sneaked their way into the group, they DARE complain about being addressed as women?

The actual women supporting those lunatics must have lots their brains. Zombie apocalpse. It seems to be infectious, too.

This is one of the best and most informative threads I have ever read on Mn. It has cleared up and answered a few things for me. Thank you mn.

This is an informative thread indeed. I am not as knowledgeable as others on hear but I have been educating myself as a member of my family is transitioning now. So, if you permit here are a few concerns from a personal level...

1. My relative has felt that he wanted to be a woman since childhood. When we were little he always wanted to be the 'princess' in our games. When he was a teenager he came out as gay, and now in his 20s he has begun the transition.

1. Not officially diagnosed but I think he also suffers from anxiety. He self-speaks awful things about himself and will work himself into an almost panic attack if he can't get his hair right.

1. I am not convinced he wants to be a real woman but that he wants to be a princess. If you told him 'you can be a woman, but not a pretty blonde one and you can't wear flouncy dresses ' then he wouldn't go for it. Its a fantasy he is after.

1. Whilst he is now dressing and living as a woman, he doesn't have access yet to any medical alterations. So he is so self-conscious that he can't leave the house on his own.

Ultimately I am terrified that it wouldn't take much right now to prompt a suicide attempt. Because even when the transition is complete, he will still be chasing a fantasy that will never fulfil him. And I wish that our society would favour a different approach for addressing gender dismorphia.

Little Jeopardy, you should definitely read Maria Catt. She had many of the same experiences.

Just wanted to add a note about the original question.

Feminists are also angry about women losing their right to talk about their anatomy and biology as actually being female. It is now the case that many believe that if you feel female then your anatomy/biology is consequently and unquestionably also female. So a penis and testicles are female biology in someone who feels female but male biology in someone who feels male. Making discussion of any issues almost impossible without being branded a bigot for daring to use a term like "female reproductive system".

Many trans allies haven't got this memo yet. I have seen some online calling others TERF despite also talking about male and female in this "incorrect" way.

3. I am not convinced he wants to be a real woman but that he wants to be a princess. If you told him 'you can be a woman, but not a pretty blonde one and you can't wear flouncy dresses ' then he wouldn't go for it. Its a fantasy he is after.

Can you get him the book "A Brother's Price" as a birthday present?
It's about a man in a matriarchal world, who is expected to be pretty, and turns out to be distantly related to a prince. He wears lots of pretty clothes, has long hair and does feminine things.

Perhaps your relative could do with a male role model who shows him that it's okay to want to be a pretty man.

Here's a link to the site on TV Tropes: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/ABrothersPrice

Can't think of a book with a gay man in a similar setting.

You should warn him that taking female hormones might change his sexuality (making him attracted to women), so he might never be "normal", if that's what he wants.

Thank you, Almond and Vestal, I will look into those reading materials. Its hard to find different approaches out there!

Here's a link to Maria Catt.

mariacatt.com/2016/03/31/the-adult-baby-story/

If you click on where it says 'words' you can get to the rest of her writing.

Hi all! Thanks for replying! It's certainly answered a lot of questions for me. I can see that certain types of transactivists create problems for women's rights (the example above by Betty Draper boggles the mind). I can't say that this has affected me or that I had noticed this personally, but then I am not a feminist activist myself and (to the best of my knowledge) do not know any transwomen, let alone transactivists.

I think I had a rather incorrect (outdated?) idea of transpeople, and this thread has certainly enlightened me. Quencher glad it's helped you too, and good to know I'm not the only one who was confused by these issues :)

littlejeopardy that is so sad, and such a poignant example of how the system of categorising somebody in a situation like your cousin as transgender is actually harmful. He should be able to access support but supporting him to chase a dream that he actually is unlikely to be able to realise just strikes me as cruel.

I really feel for your relative, Littlejeopardy. I think he needs some sort of therapy because it sounds as though he has some sort of body dysmorphia. It is sad that he is so unhappy in himself. Best wishes.

Why is where posters live relevant Sixpence?

I think it's relevant because Betty said "then a lot of trans people tried to join". I live in a smallish city and work with and mix in circles which are largely middle class, liberals and don't know any trans people let alone "a lot".