Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Penises in the men's, vaginas in the women's. I don't care about the clothing.

Wow Scoutsmam, a fully grown adult male who "feels" like a woman can access a women only space but a traumatised male child fleeing with his mother cannot? Wow, just wow...

I agree with PPs who have said gender neutral spaces are needed.

I am at a complete loss as to why my feelings of discomfort at sharing a female only space with someone who has a functioning penis and is probably a lot taller and stronger than me, are any less valid than a stranger who feels like a woman's feelings.

I have no issue with sharing a female only space with a trans female who is post op or even pre-op but living as a woman though, I probably wouldn't even notice. But someone who just "feels like" a woman, not a chance.

I wish the bathroom issue wasn't the one that always comes up, I think to some people it doesn't sound that big of a deal and they don't think through to the ultimate potential consequences of all the other areas that women could lose.
Basically, women will be LOSING THEIR RIGHTS IN FAVOUR OF TRANSWOMEN in the UK if Maria Miller gets her way.
We will lose our right to women only spaces anywhere, be they in toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, refuge shelters, or any women's group you may enjoy being part of.
If there is ANY area of your life where you prefer to be in the company of only women for whatever reason, THEN THIS SHOULD CONCERN YOU.

Bear in mind that a Trans woman will no longer mean a person who has undergone hormone treatment, surgery, years of medical input. It can mean a person who until yesterday was a bloke who has always been a bloke and has a penis and plenty of testosterone and has never even spoken to a medical professional about wanting to be a woman.

Has tea disappeared then? Lol. They keep trying it, don't they. Think they can come on here and gaslight us and we'll roll over. Nah.
And just FYI , OP (and anyone else who thinks so) it isn't just on mumsnet, it's everywhere. Real life, and on other forums. Thats because everyone, deep down, knows that a man is a man and a woman is a woman and trying to redefine words and terminology doesn't change that.

I've seen people throw around the idea of replacing the word "women" with "black people" before to illustrate that something is sexist. What if we did that with the word "men" on this thread?

Genuinely asking as I am a bit perplexed to see so many people agreeing that women need to be protected from men. I mean, statistically a black person is more likely to end up in prison, but I don't avoid black people because they could be a criminal and I don't want to "take one for the team"

It also seems to be an increasingly popular opinion on this forum that bodies are just bodies, nudity should not be sexualised etc yet as soon as the question of transsexuals (or whatever term applies) is raised then suddenly everything reverts back to sexuality and everyone with a penis being a potential rapist to be held at arms length. Forgive me if I'm missing something, I am on board with the notion of recognising women as their own 'group' minus trans for a number of reasons. But I cannot get on board with suspecting men in general as potential rapists. And I say that as a victim myself who to this day is severely traumatised.

Hi! I am sort of still here - I've been watching a movie then give to bed! Crazy little thing called RL...!

I understand that you are not going to change your mind. I am not going to convince anyone, that's obvious. If I stayed and answered every comment I'd never sleep again, let alone work or watch a movie.

And am I 'they'? Really? I've been on MN since 2004, not that I want to play 'who has greatest claim to this particular little bit of contested online territory' - see my earlier comments about feminism and intra-female competition - but the 'othering' of me implied in the use of 'they' is a bit Orwellian (to use a previous poster's phrase). Or a bit unpleasant, at the least.

I've just read on FB that in North Carolina since the introduction of the 'bathroom bill', calls to trans suicide helplines have more than doubled. I'll just leave you with that as I go to bed. Goodnight!

The vast majority of violent crime is carried out by men Woolly.
Any kind of violence against any kind of person, in the overwhelming majority of cases it is men who are doing it, the world over.
Sexual violence is even more likely to be perpetrated by a man.
This does not mean that all men are violent rapists, or that women never commit violent crime. But if I am taking precautions to keep myself safe from sexual assault, statistically I am much much safer around women than men.

They accept Transwomen though. 13 year old boy fleeing with his Mum, big no no. Male bodied adult, come on in!

Oo This is insane.

Woolley, I guess it's because the new legislation is so open to abuse because it's all about feelings.

You can't ask someone to expose their genitals to prove their sex and you can't prove whether their feelings are genuine or they are just abusing the system.

I have absolutely no issue with trans men or women who want to go about their business and who have genuine feelings of being in the wrong body. I do have an issue with those who use legislation which is intended to protect vulnerable people as an excuse to erode women's rights to privacy, dignity and safety.

Tea All the questions aimed at you you were 'do you agree with...' It doesn't take long to answer a question with a yes or no, surely?
Because the questions asked, that you're refusing to answer, are the crux of the issue surely?

"I am a bit perplexed to see so many people agreeing that women need to be protected from men"

I'm sorry, is it news to you that men and women have separate private spaces like toilets and changing rooms? Surely the need to have female-only spaces in certain circumstances have been established quite some time ago.

I don't believe all or even most men are rapists, but I don't want to undress in front of men.

If he can't use the disabled loo, DH knocks on the women's door and asks if they mind if he comes in. He has never been turned away.

That is one of the reasons why I am absolutely against transwomen being legally entitled to use women's toilets: If they are genuinely worried about male violence, and not violent themselves ... then they can just politely ask if anyone would mind them using the women's toilets.

Most women don't mind, as illustrated by the fact that they also don't mind a father changing his baby's nappies in there.

Changing the law is about forcing women who DO mind males in their spaces, who DO feel threatened, to suffer in silence.

It is about enabling very male looking males who are at no danger whatsoever in the men's loo to just waltz into the women's and make everyone there uncomfortable just because they can.

I'll just leave you with that as I go to bed

In the time it took you to type that you could have answered some of the questions you've so studiously avoided answering. Shame.

teafuelledradical I do wish you would stop offering to go to the loo with any trans woman who wants to go to the loo with you !

I know you mean well, and I know where you are coming from. But please read up on this stuff and try and get your head round it. Society is attempting to 're-define what it means to be female. Can you not see how very harmful this is going to be to all women, and especially to vulnerable women?

Genuine trans women who have a genuine dislike of their male bodies and alter their bodies with surgery and hormones still have the rates of criminality as other males.That is the finding of a long term study in Sweden. Sorry I cannot link to it because on phone. The same study found trans men (biological females) who transitioned also had the rates of criminality as males. They adopted male patterns of behaviour.

But we are no longer even toalking of transitioning! We are talking of identifying. That is all. If I identify as my next door neighbour's daughter do I get to live in their house, demand they pay my college fees! No. If I identify as a brain surgeon do I get to operate of people's brains? No! Please please read the links of many men who identified as women expressly to access women!

I know genuine trans women may well have had very difficult experiences, or hard starts to life but so do abused children, male or female, anyone who is the victim of serious bullying, perhaps people involved with addiction to alcohol or drugs, care system etc have all had tough times.

Do you want all those people in the toilet with you. AND even if you do, I don't want them in the toilet with me or my daughter! Or the hospital ward or shelter or, God forbid if I ever needed it, the rape crisis centre.

Why does your right trump mine?

But I cannot get on board with suspecting men in general as potential rapists. And I say that as a victim myself who to this day is severely traumatised.

I am confused. How do you know if a man is a potential rapist or not?

You cannot believe that no man is a potential rapist, yet you say you don't want to suspect men in general ... which men do you suspect of being potential rapists?

Since 90% (or more) of rapists belong to the male sex, excluding males from a space is a reasonably safe way of ensuring that there are no rapists.

However, I am not aware of any subset of males who are statistically less likely to be rapists and that you could easily identify by how they look.

I do wish you would stop offering to go to the loo with any trans woman who wants to go to the loo with you

The toilet issue does obfuscate situations such as the one I mentioned earlier, whereby convicted rapist Davina Ayrton wanted to be incarcerated in a women's prison (which, thankfully, s/he was not).

Is it wilful ignorance/incurable naivety that leads some people to believe that this issue is only relevant to public toilets? Can they not see that if legislation is passed, this right of unquestioned access will extend to women's refuges, prisons, rape support groups, etc.?

Ruthy I know this issue is not just about toilets! But tea said on at least two occasions she was willing to go to the loo with a trans woman who needed 'who know what' my point was if she had read the numerous links to men who went into toilets just to spy on or abuse women maybe she would stop making that offer!

cake the law is going to change soon unless we make ourselves heard. I can't find the link. I will find it tomorrow. Am away from pc and on phone. Sorry. There is a consultation which ends soon.

We need to write to our MPs and Maria Miller and explain why the propsrd law change is bad for women.

tea I certainly don't want trans women to commit suicide or even threaten it. But really you cannot expect 51% of the population to be put in increased actual danger and effectively have their biological identity erased because some people are upset that they are not 'recognised' as women - when they are men!

You keep saying you see trans women as woman. What is a woman to you? Just someone who says they are?

No, I know that, Italian - I was agreeing with you that 'hey, I'll go to the toilet with a TW any day of the week' is an overly simplistic distillation of the issue.

Loose sorry!

Actually there was some sort of suggestions (who knows where from) that women could wear a badge to odrnty themsves as willing to accompany trans women to the loo! Whoever thinks these things up!

Ooopse not loose!

The usa has seen a sharp rise in the number of (actual not threatened) suicides amongst white people in particular this year. tea what do you think, we need 'white affirmative action' interventions perhaps?

The suicide rate dropped for black men over the same period. Good to see all must be well in their world then.

Its really weird how things go when you analyse everything in terms of suicide rates and it turns out middle aged white men are the most under privileged. Perhaps they really do need their own toilets

The suicide rate dropped for black men over the same period. Good to see all must be well in their world

I do despise the whole "If men were going to do invade women's spaces, they would have done already" falsehood.

Can we just think back to why toilets were sex-segregated in the first place, and work forwards from that?

There is a reason this happened. This reason hasn't gone away. It hasn't magically disappeared because another group of people has decided that their needs are greater (great that they are able to define this for themselves....I'd say they are already off to a good start.....it has taken women centuries to get equal rights, and even with them in place, they aren't being treated equally - see gender-pay gap, number of sex-discrimination cases to tribunal/acas, sexual assaults on women and girls, fgm - well publicised case in the uk - north london actually, domestic violence, etc etc, and we are a Western "progressive" country).

Trans folks shouldn't be throwing the very women they say the 'align' with under the bus just to suit their own selfish needs. How is that equality?