Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Morning!

Just very quickly as I am going out this morning: I'm not avoiding questions, and honestly, I'm not doing anything 'studiously' on this thread or indeed in RL this weekend. Quite the opposite! I'm relaxing and hope to do a bit of gardening this afternoon.

There were lots of questions addressed to me yesterday evening and given that I only have about 5 mins, what I'd say is this: yes, I believe the trans women are women and what makes them so is a very deep sense of their true selves.

Now this can be hijacked for evil (if I can use that word) purposes by men of ill-intent, but so can many things, and the abuse doesn't undermine the true goodness or purpose of the thing itself (I could give you many examples but they're all pretty obvious and I'm sure you can think for yourself - alcohol, garden spades, cars, education, any sort of ideology, etc etc...) Others might think they are trans and turn out not to be - that's okay by me, that does nothing to alter the experiences of those who are trans.

Anyway, as I've said several times, I know I'm not going to convince you - but the flip side is that you haven't convinced me either! So, in return for all the questions some of you asked of me yesterday, here's my question:

Can you demonstrate evidence to show unambiguously that trans women sharing women's spaces has led to violence against women, and that such violence outweighs the violence suffered by trans women in the same time period? (I'm not really interested in or convinced by hypotheticals.)

One v last thing before I go out: someone mentioned GPs' suicide rate in a light-hearted / ironic / sarcastic way. That is really not okay. stress and depression among doctors is a massive problem, and laughing it off is really crass. Same with suicide rates in the USA - yes, there are many aspects of our societies that are very unhappy, and many, many desperately unhappy people. Please don't speak so lightly or carelessly of suicide. It is a real thing, and these are real people you're talking about.

I believe the trans women are women and what makes them so is a very deep sense of their true selves.

I take it you didn't study human biology at school then, tea?

Maybe you should not come back to the thread until you have some time to properly engage.

Teafuelled the bathroom "equality" nonsense is too new to prove anything. I ask you to look at this though.

Ok. Third and final time of asking:

Should Davina Ayrton, a paedophile rapist with a penis, have been granted his wish to be incarcerated in a women's prison, on the basis that he identified as a woman? Because under revised legislation, he would have been granted his wish.

So, under proposed revised legislation, man with functioning and intact penis is convicted of rape, self-identifies as a woman, goes to women's prison. Are the women in that prison at risk? Whose rights are more important here?

Good idea, coye.

Though of course someone who doesn't see threats to women's safety as that big a deal isn't going to commit to proper engagement with these issues anyway.

tea that's a very circular definition - "woman - anyone who has a deep sense of themselves as a woman". I dont have a deep sense of my true self as a woman - what am I?

If a TW and her male partner were struggling to get pregnant, would you have any idea why, given that TW are women and woman is just a feeling?

I don't know if someone has done all the links on this thread to the assaults on women and perving/filming done by men dressed as women.

I can tell you one definitively - Christopher/Jessica Hanbrook insisted on access to two different women's shelters in Canada. He went on to assault 4 women, one of whom was 15. And there's a list as long as your arm of other cases.

How many women need to be assaulted before you'll accept this is a problem? For me the acceptable number of women to be assaulted due to opening up sex segregated spaces is zero - what's your cut off?

And can you please provide your evidence of Transwomen being assaulted when using men's bathrooms, since you seem convinced men are unsafe for TW to be around, but perfectly safe for women to be around.

RuthyToothy
To start with a paedophile is not likely to attack women.
Female prisons have male guards.
Female prisons have females who probably have no problems forcing other women to have sex with them.

I'd actually be more concerned about the safety of a male rapist in a serious offender female prison than about the safety of the female inmates.

• cote

To start with a paedophile is not likely to attack women

He was convicted of raping a 15 year old. You think his moral code kicks in above the age of consent?

It's not likely that inmates are young teenagers. Still, the rest of my points also apply. He'd be more likely to be severely maimed before he managed to attack anyone.
And female inmates are still not 100% safe with male guards and other females not worried about consent.

Female prisons have male guards.
Are convicted rapists allowed to work as guards in women's prisons?

Female prisons have females who probably have no problems forcing other women to have sex with them.
Ah well, in that case sharing a cell with an inmate with a convicted rapist with male physical strength and a penis is just fine, then. Absolutely the exact same situation.

Can you demonstrate evidence to show unambiguously that trans women sharing women's spaces has led to violence against women

You are asking two questions here. The answer to the first one is yes. Transwomen exhibit exactly the same rates of sexually violence crimes as men.
The second question is logically inconsistent. One does not outweigh the other.

Anyone with a penis is a concern, surely.
Sharing a prison is not the same as sharing a cell. Many times rapists and paedophiles are kept separate from the general inmate male population because of the risk to their personal safety. The same would certainly apply in a female prison, I imagine.
Or to male on male convicted rapists

It's not likely that inmates are young teenagers

You genuinely believe that a man who raped a 15 year old would not rape a 25 year old? You genuinely believe that to be true? You'd lock a convicted rapist with a penis in a cell with another woman and take his word for it that he wouldn't rape her?

Anyone with a penis is a concern, surely.

Those who have been convicted of rape are of quite immense concern to women, yes.

It continues to baffle me how the very vocal trans activists claim to feel that they are women, want to be women, and yet ultimately they seem to have nothing but scorn for women. They are scornful of the fact that women feel safer in some circumstances when they are in female only spaces and adamant that their feelings are more important than women's feelings.

You called him a paedophile rapist. Paedophiles by definition prefer children.

In any case, refer to the rest of my points.

Overall, I don't think him/her being in a female prison would add greatly to the risks female inmates already have. And, if anything, he would probably be more at risk - if he was let among the general inmate population, which is not likely.

Upthread, tea posted several times that MN is different from RL because in RL most people support the trans agenda in respect of women's safe spaces.

I wonder if she thinks what happened to Germaine Greer and the fact that women who don't support the extremes of trans activism are routinely silenced, threatened and defamed, and the fact that MN is one of the few remaining places where women's voices can still be heard, might have anything to do with that difference?

lweij why do we bother to have sex segregated prisons at all by your logic?

Oh so all paedophiles only want to abuse children and have respect for adults and can maintain healthy respectful boundaries with them

as with men that rape it's more often about power than who they are sexually attracted too

I am surprised you have posted such nonsense

I certainly don't have a problem with unisex toilets or changing rooms.
On the other hand, I wouldn't particularly like to share open showers with men.

But quite a lot of this discussion also reminds me of possible fears by heterosexual men about sharing spaces with gay men
Should gay men be segregated to female spaces not to threaten heterosexual men?
How about gay women?
How about children alone in male spaces? Should we run checks on all users? Or test users to see if they sexually react to children?
Just thinking out loud.

suburban I think what tea is experiencing . Lots of liberal minded automatic support for trans issues. I should know, that used to be me

Because the facts and issues are self evident when you're allowed to discuss them, boards are heavily moderated and comments deleted. So most people are just told that TW are in danger and no woman has ever been attacked by someone claiming to be female, and repeat it.

MN is one of the few places where women can be shown the reality of the issue and explore the problems that arise

You called him a paedophile rapist. Paedophiles by definition prefer children.

He termed himself a paedophile. He's seemingly proud of the fact. I don't agree that he poses no threat to women over the age of consent.

After all, his definition of 'woman' is his own, so perhaps his definition of 'paedophile' is similarly flexible?

In any case, refer to the rest of my points.

I have done. I find them all quite weak and poorly considered. If you equate the presence of a male prison guard with the same degree of risk to women's safety as the presence of a convicted rapist, God help you.