Can we have a sensible discussion about Cologne.

[HelenaDove]

I feel very uneasy about the way the discussions on the news board are going.

Can we have a discussion on the events of Cologne that isnt racist or sexist (meaning no sexism towards British OR refugee women) I find it very hard to believe that a feminist would refer to young women as girlies or talk about them as if their pregnancies were immaculate conceptions. Yet i have seen someone refer to young British women in this way as well as ask why some of the refugee women are pregnant.

Some of the comments ive seen are making me very uneasy and i hope i am articulating this in the right way that it is intended.

it seems have any kind of discussion that isn't framed as brown men bad, white women good.

I think this is a despicable thing to say and suggests that you are trying to minimise what happened in Cologne and all over Europe. You are trying to alter what happened to whom and by whom.

Also can we have less of the right wing bashing? Or at least give a passing mention to the Labour parties who historically did not want women in the workplace (taking jobs away from men) and the Labour councillors and council in Rochdale, who threw vulnerable teenaged girls under a bus without a second thought?

'I would have challenged comments more had it not been for an extreme left wing poster'.

I don't think you can blame other posters for your own responses. This thread seems like an attempt to make thinly veiled digs at someone.

itllallbefine I shouldn't have spoken for Helena, and have asked for my post to be deleted. But I think I now feel uneasy about anyone speculating about someone else's views, given the effect that had on the Cologne threads.

None of us are right wing, and we had a hell of a job to continue on other threads because of constant undermining by a small group whose agenda is not the safety of women.

With all due respect, how can you possibly speak for the whole of MN by saying none of us are right wing?

Swedish politicians seem convinced that some education on "equality" will change the ways of men, who, since childhood, have been taught that it is the responsibility of women not to arouse them -- and therefore the woman's fault if the man feels like raping her.

Staff at Malmö's Hylliebadet family adventure pool were given strict instructions not to report certain things, and above all, never to mention the ethnicity or religion of those who cause problems at the pool.

Yes, above all don't mention who the culprits are !! That's what this thread wants; it's "sensible" afterall to skirt around a new problem rather than deal with it head on. You cant think much of your own gender then.

Emily Believe it or not, everything isn't always about you!

That's what this thread wants; See my comments above re speculating/declaring what other people's views are...

Exit it is when right wing is used as a derogatory term, an insult if you like and is made out to be akin to being a member of the 'we love hitler' fanclub that it is difficult to swallow. In reality there are many shades of grey in the term 'right wing' as the conservative party is essentially right wing but not in fact neo nazi.

Ending up discussing that took up valuable time which should have been given to discussing the crux of the matter.

If the shoe fits...

ExitPursued Okay, fine. I dont care which wing someone belongs to so long as they dont pretend that the rapes & molestation on NY Eve were not done by migrant men.

Matilda, many of us want a sensible discussion, we were not allowed to have one.

It's got to the point that I never know whether people are agreeing with me or arguing with me .

Hmmm... I live in Sweden and there has definitely been a shift here, in the few years I've lived here it's gone from somewhere I was happy to go running at night in to somewhere I feel quite on edge in certain areas.
The reluctance of mainstream politicians to discuss immigration plays right into the hands of parties like the SD, who have gone from fringe to the third largest party in a few years.
The law needs to apply to everyone. There was a case a while back here where a huge number of girls in a school were found to have undergone fgm. But they're brown so it's excused by culture. Are brown girls worth less then? Because that's what that says... If a blonde ethnic swede had that done to them social services would be on them like a shot. That's racism. And sexism.

Personally I am worried about a huge influx of young, unemployed and unemployable men. The gender balance among a certain age group is now worse than China.
The right wing are on the rise (and I mean extreme right wing, not just the usual perfectly OK conservatives,)
Religion and culture does not get a free pass. There's a huge difference between saying 'Christians/Muslims are bad" and saying "christian/Muslim ideology needs questioning on its views on women/homosexuality etc."

Personally I am worried about a huge influx of young, unemployed and unemployable men.

This, on its own, regardless of cultural issues, is enough to show how little politicians care about women's safety - or at least how ignorant they are about the likely effects of such an influx, when it distorts the gender demographic. There is evidence that such gender imbalances increase crime, including crime against women, from both China and India.

Ok, international woman's day, MNHQ has this thread going

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/what_were_reading/2583434-International-Womens-Day-2016-Put-your-questions-to-the-inspirational-Maria-Toorpakai-author-of-A-Different-Kind-of-Daughter

I won't put this question to her as I feel it's not the place to do so.

But it did cross my mind, what her thoughts would be on the many young men coming from similar back grounds to her, currently tracking across Europe, with possibly many of them still holding on to those very values , she struggled to get away from.

But she is also in Canada, and as far as I know refugees and migrants are selected and then flown in. So maybe she won't see the integration problems that have acured in Europe.

For the record of this thread, I don't think all refugees are economic migrants, I do think there is a significant number who are though.

I also don't think all economic migrants bring a backwards culture with them. But as we have seen in Europe enough of them do, and this is causing problems for women and authorities.

We do need to talk about this, and unfortunately we do have to address culture, and unfettered movement of lots and lots of people in a very short space of time.

I don't have any answers, but I hope with open discussion we could find a way forward.

On a side note. After seeing the amount of women and children(seemingly without partners with them) getting off the boats in Greece. I would be happy for each EU country to take their fair share of refugees and economic migrants. As long as they were family units.

But then I feel incredibly sexest.
But given that it is young men who are the majority of refugees/migrants who are already here, and a good amount causing not insignificant trouble.......

I am torn

I agree with what kesstrel and Zaurak have said.

I don't feel there is anything sexist about admitting the proven fact that young men commit far more violent crime than do either women or older men.

No I meant, sexest, as in leave the men behind. I know someone some where will being it up.

I don't think you can blame other posters for your own responses.
But you can wind up in a sort of siege mentality. And when a thread is moving very fast you can't respond to everything, either.

Cultural issues need to be discussed. Attempts to stifle debate in the political mainstream leads to polarisation.

Helena, fwiw, I'm not right wing.

Religion and culture does not get a free pass. There's a huge difference between saying 'Christians/Muslims are bad" and saying "christian/Muslim ideology needs questioning on its views on women/homosexuality etc"

Yes, however we can make films about dodgy areas of christianity, we can look at it under the spot light - Like the Film, Spotlight, which is about catholic priests abusing boys, we have films like Philomena and the Magdalen Laundries. Even then, its not easy! But we can do it.

Can we do this with Islam? Can we put it under the spot light, have films about aspects of it? Write controversial books about it?

(sorry when I say not easy, I mean, even though we can can make fillms, write books and joke about it, trying to get to the rot is not easy)

For the record of this thread, I don't think all refugees are economic migrants, I do think there is a significant number who are though

Most posters I would say also agree not every single migrant is economic.

But when a poster, denies all knowledge or existence of economic migrants, the debate goes off at a tangent to prove their existence. But the poster ignores all facts and links and then debate gets even more derailed and polarized and - well - heated

Can we shine a spotlight on it? Ask difficult questions?

Ask Salman Rushdie, Danish cartoonists or the staff at Charlie Hebdo.