Can we have a sensible discussion about Cologne.

[HelenaDove]

I feel very uneasy about the way the discussions on the news board are going.

Can we have a discussion on the events of Cologne that isnt racist or sexist (meaning no sexism towards British OR refugee women) I find it very hard to believe that a feminist would refer to young women as girlies or talk about them as if their pregnancies were immaculate conceptions. Yet i have seen someone refer to young British women in this way as well as ask why some of the refugee women are pregnant.

Some of the comments ive seen are making me very uneasy and i hope i am articulating this in the right way that it is intended.

MatildaBeetham but the implications are of a teacher standing by and allowing it, are greater.

The child who threw punch now knows it's definitely OK to do it again, because they were seen and there were no repercussions.

That child and maybe other children will do it again and again and again to other children.

No one is saying that it is lesser if a woman is assaulted in private. I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion?

If a woman or a neighbour called the police to report an assault that is happening in her home or somewhere else private and they refused to take action, what message would that convey to the victim? You don't matter, you are a liar, we are protecting your abuser, you are powerless to stop this, are things that come to mind.

They are not usually literal bystanders though.

The police do not usually literally stand in people's houses watching them get sexually assaulted.

The police were literal bystanders in Cologne.

There is necessarily an 'of course' because it is fundamental to democracy that the state do not monitor our private lives to the same extent that they monitor public gatherings.

I'm arguing people should be similarly angry and resolved to do something about the sexual violence that European men perpetrate

People are just as angry and as I said a pp things have been slowly changing. But it's time to up the anty, Because we now have extra to deal with. People who are willing to sexually assault women and children in public areas such as swimming pools, train stations, streets, Greg's.......

The playing field is/has changed and we really need to start somewhere with how to deal with it.

I'm not sure there is an age-old patriarchal division between public and private space. There's a lot that doesn't fit neatly into that box. There are/have been cultures where it's acceptable to hit "your" women, full stop, public or private. There are also cultures where hitting a woman is frowned on, but it's believed that it's very difficult to stop it completely in private situations, from a purely practical point of view. The latter is supported by a lot of experience, and is due to a host of complex factors.

Mathilda what would your reaction have been if the Cologne perpetrators had been white German men? Would you have been arguing that other forms of sexual assault are just as bad, and that digital public gang rape of hundreds of women needs to be seen in context?

Matilda, it was seen as a sex game (tarrush gamea) in Cologne; a phenomena seen in Tahria Square during Arab Spring.

this is harrowing to watch but will give you an idea of why this is different.

Not worse, just different. Different to dv in a European context.

And because it is a cultural phenomena, the ethnicity and cultural beliefs of the perpetrator is important.

We are very aware indeed of the sensitivities of discussing this, but it is an issue that, as the numbers of single young men entering Europe without identification continues to rise, will become more important to debate.

It's not the same. Another way of attacking women yes. But not the same.

One of the important dimensions of tarrahush gamea is that it is to some extent a form of punishment; punishment for women who dare to be out in public, instead of at home where they belong.

The anthropological literature on rape identifies socially-sanctioned punishment gang rape in a number of societies.

This is another reason why it is different, in addition to the fact that it is public.

More should be done to show immigrants how to behave in their new countries

Yes without a doubt, some education needs to happen.

Judges also need to be on board, they cannot allow some parents to hit their dc because that's what they are used to in their culture.

they cannot allow some parents to mutilate their daughters gentiles, because that is what they do.

they cannot allow men to sexually harass women because they know no better.

This is the UK, we do not hit children, we do not cut their vaginas, and we do not allow the harassment, and sexual assault of women.

etc etc etc.

But now we have to add into the mix an even greater risk coming from an influx of young men who have been brought up to believe it is their right to behave the way they do.What I'm saying is the odds of been sexual assaulted in public have just risen an awful lot for those women in Europe

This ^.

almond totally agree re the child and the teacher being there watching and doing nothing.

I don't understand your posts Mat. Are you trying to take culture out of the equation?

Do you really think some education would make a difference? FGM is illegal in this country but still we have doctors who will carry out the procedure and yet not one prosecution. People know it's wrong, some just dont care.

These are men raised in a patriarchal and savagely misogynist culture which teaches them, from birth, that women are inferior. Education isnt going to change minds, after all would you change your long-held views having attended a few sessions with a preacher at your local mosque?

I'm arguing people should be similarly angry and resolved to do something about the sexual violence that European men perpetrate, to which the authorities are bystanders as well

Do you see now what the differences are and what it is we are discussing on this thread?

Nobody disagrees that anger and resolve should be aimed at any men committing sexually violent acts.

Just we are not discussing that on these threads. I'm sure you can respect that. Do link to any threads you want to start about sexual violence in a domestic European setting (or indeed worldwide).

I for one will be happy to post and support there.

anna

I don't know re education, although generally I think education is always a great idea, but it would remove the ignorance plea wouldn't it.

all of this needs tightening up, esp if Turkey joins.

Indigo, I see it, I tend to think in my own head, that goes without saying!
Of course everyone is angry at any sexual assault, there have been tons of threads on Saville, on Rolf Harris, there are/were long long on going threads about sexual assault covering all aspects across Europe.

Now - we have threads on the latest atrocity which is....Cologne!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2138791-Establishment-Paedophiled-Part-2-Warning-potential-triggers

This and the first thread is all about sex abuse from lots of different angels, mostly establishment perpetrators, elm guest house.

I posted on this thread, I was just as out raged as I am about cologne.

It's not as simple as Europe has dv and MENA has public violence. dv also exists in Middle East & North African cultures. Marital rape is legal in all MENA countries except for Tunisia, which is also the only MENA country to have a specific law on dv.

Women in these countries face violence in both public and private spaces with far smaller chance of redress than European women. In many MENA countries, rapists legally escape punishment if they marry their victims. I find that horrific. In others, victims are likely to be prosecuted for adultery if they press charges of rape.

We have a workshop tomorrow night on intercultural understanding at the refugee centre where I volunteer (in Germany). I'm very interested to see what they bring up gender-wise.

Yes Yodel, as well as that, in many (most?) MENA countries a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man making it virtually impossible for a man to be convicted of a crime against a woman.

'pregnancies were immaculate conceptIon'

You mean virgin birth.
'Immaculate conception' relates only to the state of Mary, mother of God, being born perfect, and has nothing to do with sex. Sorry to be pedantic.

Do you really think some education would make a difference? FGM is illegal in this country but still we have doctors who will carry out the procedure and yet not one prosecution.

Harley and Wimpole Streets are full of ME doctors. Discretion is guaranteed.

It's proving they are doing it that's the hard part isn't it? You'd literally have to catch them performing it to prove it. It's a dangerous practice that can put a woman's health and even life at risk. There are no positives to it at all.

No education doesn't seem to be making much difference does it. It's hard to see what will work except raids and prosecutions. Shut these doctors down, stop them practising.

France manages it.

France's tough stance on female genital mutilation is working, say campaigners

gu.com/p/3mdy5?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

But then gets accused of racism for doing so.
www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-racist-roots-of-the-french-fgm-crusade/16871#.VuBw93RFDqA

African parents were criminalised by comparing the action of a mentally ill woman to what loving African parents do to their child, believing they are helping their daughter in her future as a woman, a wife and a mother. Immigrant parents do not practice female circumcision with the intent to harm their child, or because they are mentally ill. They are doing it out of concern for the future of their daughters.

'Why are the Cologne assaults so different?'
I agree with lots of the arguments already posted - you can't ignore the background of the perpetrators.
First the attempted cover up - if the men responsible for these attacks had been white Germans it would have been instant headline news. The fact that they were immigrants meant that it wasn't.
I wonder if the police would have handled it better and been more proactive if it wasn't for the fact they thought they had to keep it quiet - drafting in reinforcements would make that task more difficult, they couldn't have made that initial report that it had passed without major incident if they had.
The behaviour of the media - the silence and then the minimising - the Guardian didn't know what to write so tried to ignore it and hope it would go away. The politicians similar. All due to a fear of being called racist and worry about giving the far right extremists ammunition - when the silence achieved that better than any open honest discussion would have.
(And we should have learned from Rotherham etc -but we obviously haven't)

The politicians also did victim blaming - anything to divert attention from their responsibility for the actual problem - mass badly controlled immigration.
Ignore cultural background - just the sheer numbers of men that have arrived and the resultant gender imbalance causes problems in societies. I've read some research and not all of it agrees but there seem to be a common theme that a 'surplus' of men leads to an increase in all crime. And most of these migrants are young men in the age group that are responsible for most violent crime in any society. That alone is a powder keg.
Now look at the fact they are immigrants - they have no real ties, nothing really to lose, no fear of the consequences of their actions. If they need to move they don't need to worry about leaving their family behind (they have already done that), they don't have anything worth losing as in material possessions - they don't own houses, cars etc. They aren't worried about their job prospects and cvs. Or the disapproval of their long standing neighbours/community.
The fact that there are such vast numbers means they can't possibly be processed fast enough, the 'state' can have no idea of who they really are, where they are, there is no concrete record of all of them. (Hence the reports of one of them tearing up his papers - they can just re-register tomorrow) and let's face facts even in the relative small area of the UK people go missing, disappear and we have 'wanted' faces on Crime watch - we can't find people who do have ties even in the relatively small area of just the UK. And we are talking about a whole continent they could move around. And some of them will be using fake ID anyway.
Finally look at the cultures they come from - sexually repressed and misogynistic.

I find these attacks are so terrifying because they were blatant - the attackers seemed to believe they acted with impunity. The agencies (police) who were supposed to protect the victims didn't (and I'm not sure they could effectively)
And even if you could accurately identify and trace everyone single one of the attackers, if you were surrounded by a gang of men, a sea of faces all pawing at you, hands coming at you from all directions, absolute chaos - how could you tell which one did what? Which ones digitally raped you and which ones 'just' grabbed at your breasts? How could you give a good enough description of what happened to convict anyone? It is safety in numbers - safety from prosecution and consequences for the attackers...
(I guess you could possibly get the whole group as accomplices but then reading about taharrush gamea it seems some of the perpetrators pretend to be trying to rescue the victims, to deter and confuse real rescuers)

I agree all sexually violent men are evil and we need to look at ways of tackling them in their many guises. But different situations need different approaches.
These assaults were unprecedented in the EU, we need to face up to that and look at possible specific solutions.

These assaults were unprecedented in the EU, we need to face up to that and look at possible specific solutions

My fear is that we've already signalled our intentions:
No consequences, after all you're so traumatised we understand
No consequences, after all the women, now we finally believe there was an 'incident' can't identify you
No consequences: there was little real public outcry other than from the far far far far far far right and who listens to those fascists anyway?
No consequences; even in the EU parliament, there are MEPs who won't discuss it and who have stated to do so is racist
No consequences: even the pro-family and feminist discussion boards want the uncomfortable debate to go away.

I'd say fill your boots lads, your new hosts don't give a fuck what you do to their women.

That is what I've been banging on about Indigo. There are no consequences therefore no deterrents. The European governments are complicit by their inaction.

Excellent summary unlucky.

I am especially disappointed in the feminist response.

I feel as though I'm living in a parallel universe where the response to mass sexual assault is for women with a voice to stay silent until they can join the 'let's not provoke the far right' hysteria that obscures the original attacks.

How can any feminist genuinely believe that it is acceptable to stay silent on these crimes?

All the women who are using their considerable online presence to be vociferously pissed off at a mildly sexist cricketer? Where are you when women and girls go out and are surrounded by gangs of men and digitally raped?

And when similar assaults are being reported daily throughout Europe without consequence?

I'm not at all shocked by the feminist response, disappointed, yes.
They're more concerned about 7 yr old boys in the ladies changing rooms than 7 yr old boys being raped in swimming pools as a matter of 'sexual urgency'. God that term makes my blood run cold.