Can we have a sensible discussion about Cologne.

[HelenaDove]

I feel very uneasy about the way the discussions on the news board are going.

Can we have a discussion on the events of Cologne that isnt racist or sexist (meaning no sexism towards British OR refugee women) I find it very hard to believe that a feminist would refer to young women as girlies or talk about them as if their pregnancies were immaculate conceptions. Yet i have seen someone refer to young British women in this way as well as ask why some of the refugee women are pregnant.

Some of the comments ive seen are making me very uneasy and i hope i am articulating this in the right way that it is intended.

I am pleased you started this. I raised concerns a while back, about some of those posters. It didn't go well.

Did you only want to talk about Cologne?

No Its a general feeling of uneasiness ive got. I cant really articulate it except i have seen some very worrying attitudes on other threads and downright misogyny towards working class women.

I am worried that a lot of these issues are getting hijacked people to the right.

I meant hijacked BY people to the right.

I don't think they were women posters.

I dont either. Some of the comments about women would NEVER be said by someone who really self identifies as a feminist.

New posters too.

It would be nice to think that we can, however, given that every single thread about it has descended very quickly into racism, sexism and abusive language toward people who offer any type of alternative viewpoint than "All refugees are economic migrants, all economic migrants are Muslims, all Muslims are bastards" when not one of those statements is anything like correct, I doubt it.

I would have challenged comments more had it not been for an extreme left wing poster.

I will get deleted for this.

By allowing that one left wing poster troll the boards and start thread after thread, MNHQ stopped self moderation and it opened up boards to loads of right wing trolls.

Not all of us are right wing probably almost none in fact, we have legitimate concerns and were being told for even raising any concern about the situation we were, racist, xenophobic, neo nazi etc. Most of us are just ordinary women who had concerns on an issue the like of which we had never seen before. Unfortunately a very extreme left wing poster who was persistent but inarticulate in arguments managed to derail the discussion.

I will categorically say I do not support the right wing, I have come across those types before in unmoderated forums and believe me they say things that are very far from anything posted on here.

I will probably get deleted but I am getting to the stage where I am past caring now. I don't want to talk about mould cleaning for the rest of my life, Ta.

Crikey, this is part of the problem and why far -right parties are gaining support across the EU. We are not right wing, male trolls and that is a lazy conclusion to draw. I'm a women with breasts and a vagina, I am not right wing, in fact consider myself slightly left of centre. I am not a new poster either, I have been on MN since it started way back in 2000 under a variety of names. Credentials established.

We have good reason to be angry about Cologne and women 's rights in all of the EU, please don't assume we are all over-generalising. This is an issue about culture and MENA men whether you like it or not. My loyalties are firmly with women, of all faiths and non, who suffer at the hands of those who blindly follow a set of cultural rules that define women as, at best, less important and at worse, dispensible.

There was one poster who iirc said he was a man posting as he was worried about his mum and other women.

Not all of us are right wing probably almost none in fact, we have legitimate concerns and were being told for even raising any concern about the situation we were, racist, xenophobic, neo nazi etc.

None of us are right wing, and we had a hell of a job to continue on other threads because of constant undermining by a small group whose agenda is not the safety of women.

I dont know how old those who have posted here are, or how well travelled and informed you are, but I would hazard a guess that the posters you are dissing are all of those things. Some are foreign-born, or first generation British. I am first generation British (my parents were refugees) and I can tell you that if none of you want to talk candidly then no solutions will ever be found. And Yes, we are all women. It is the working class (what's left of us) that continues to suffer from the effects of mass immigration.

I have two daughters and I am scared for their safety. Already my husband has had to intervene and get one of them out of a very nasty situation.

And if it was my comment about refugee women being pregnant then I think you may have misunderstood where I was coming from...................

Spot on, HelenaDove, immaculate conceptions no longer occur. That is why it is important for a woman of any age to protect herself from pregnancy and STD, instead of saying her partner doesnt like rubber. That is taking responsibility for yourself.

Years ago I had a job that dealt with young single women seeking council accommodation due to their pregnancies. The usual refrain from hundreds of applicants was "it wasnt planned, the condom split." Condoms do not split, maybe 0.02% of the time.

The applicants were around 19, wanted a child and went for it. It was a way to establish a new adult life away from mum & dad, because they felt few avenues were open to them. This still goes on, as the half-way house in my own street shows. It has been open for business for 35 yrs that I can recall.

OP - what has pregnancy got to do with "Cologne"?

What would you like to say about Cologne specifically without referring to either the sex, legal status or religious beliefs of the perpetrators of the crimes in question?

OP - what has pregnancy got to do with "Cologne"?

It's in the foreward of the poster who started this thread (which is not about Cologne).

So, no, we can't, it seems have any kind of discussion that isn't framed as brown men bad, white women good.

With a smattering of tropes about young mothers. How Thatcher. How delightful.

Yet another thread to hide.

But OP says she wants to talk about Cologne - but is talking about teenage pregnancy - so I really am confused. Did a lot of the girls in Cologne end up pregnant? Or is this a TAAT?

Palmer This is why I've asked OP what she wants to say about Cologne but without referencing the points she finds objectionable. (I would however not choose to dismiss the rape of hundreds of women with such flippancy as "white women good" though).

The sexual molestation of any woman, be she brown, white or any shade in between is what I object to. And also any cultural/religious value which tells a man that it's ok to beat his wife, rape her or any other woman, that women must never work, never go out with any other than full covering of every inch of the body, that she is lesser in terms of getting an education, in fulfilling her life, that she is a chattel, to be spoken about with contempt. Unfortunately those values are prevalent in certain parts of the world. If we don't talk about it it's never going to end, and brown women there will suffer again and again and white women too and every colour in between.

So that's what I really object to. Teenage pregnacy is a whole different issue and is also linked to providing better life chances for girls in many cases.

I think this video is important to watch.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHk
I think the cologne attacks are a new form of terrorist behavior.

What would a "sensible" discussion look like, my guess is that you would like some discussion that claims white men in this country are just as bad and the background of the attackers is not relevant ?

perhaps, i'm willing to accept that, but I'm still not sure what she means by sensible ?