Can we have a sensible discussion about Cologne.

[HelenaDove]

I feel very uneasy about the way the discussions on the news board are going.

Can we have a discussion on the events of Cologne that isnt racist or sexist (meaning no sexism towards British OR refugee women) I find it very hard to believe that a feminist would refer to young women as girlies or talk about them as if their pregnancies were immaculate conceptions. Yet i have seen someone refer to young British women in this way as well as ask why some of the refugee women are pregnant.

Some of the comments ive seen are making me very uneasy and i hope i am articulating this in the right way that it is intended.

The 'white men do terrible things too' argument is frustrating Lass, I agree.

I think that the left largely recognises the cultural challenges of mass migration, but doesn't know how to articulate its concern.

Yes. They are essentially caught in a trap of their own making. Because they have been so keen in the past to cry racism at discussions about immigration/cultural norms - even the most sensible - they can't now discuss immigration and culture without accusing themselves of the same sin. Leaves them with their heads up their own arse and nowhere to go.

Sorry, pressed post too soon...

But I think that the 'White men' argument is often used as a fallback when people don't know how to articulate their concerns about culturally-motivated behaviour in a way that doesn't sound generalising or racist.

This is very relevant to me as I live in one of the countries that has seen huge inward migration since last summer. The presence of large groups of bored young men directly affects my everyday life. Most are respectful and pleasant, some are not. I feel significantly less safe than six months ago.

I agree grimble!

The 'white men do terrible things too' argument is frustrating Lass, I agree.

Less an 'argument' and more a core component necessary to be able to mock NAMALT.

What makes me, laugh in despair

Is everybody talks about what influences there are that help towards the rape culture in 'European men' and how to change it. Things like pornography, the way women are treated in films etc

But many are incapable of looking a the influences of rape culture in well errr a different culture.

But I think that the 'White men' argument is often used as a fallback when people don't know how to articulate their concerns about culturally-motivated behaviour in a way that doesn't sound generalising or racist

Sorry I totally missed this ^

And is what I was trying to say. it's been said much better then my post.

Is Lalalili racist to feel less safe in her home now there are large groups of young men from backward misogynistic cultures hanging round the streets, emily? Perhaps you could tell the women of Ostersund how racist they are now they're being told that they should stay indoors to avoid being raped by the men their government invited to their country.

www.thelocal.se/20160308/backlash-begins-after-swedish-women-told-not-to-go-out-alone

Thinking about this while I am posting but...

What's make me really uncomfortable with this debate, specifically in the context of immigration control, is the implication that these behaviours are 'okay' in their countries of origin. It's not like stopping people entering the country will stop them abusing women, it just makes them some other woman's problem.

Indeed it is not acceptable MCB.

In any situation of conflict it is the most vulnerable who are most at risk. That's why refugee aid usually prioritises young children, the elderly and women.

But Sweden and Germany have decided to set up 'survival of the fittest' refugee policies that led to huge numbers of young men being prioritised for entry to their countries.

While Syrian women and girls sit in camps being raped and sold into sexual slavery.

mycrisp I don't think anyone is saying these behaviours are ok in their own countries ...
I think most of these young men are less likely to behave in a similar fashion in their own countries (I posted a huge post up thread about gender imbalance, failure and reluctance to acknowledge and take action because of their backgrounds and fear of being labelled racist, lack of consequences, lack of ties). Coupled with attitudes to Western women - because of our freedoms.
The cultural aspects -attitudes to women in some of their countries of origins -although I don't agree with them - their lesser freedoms will protect women from these events too.
I see it as we are now fighting to keep our freedoms as Western women - we can't tackle the rights of women in other cultures if we have none left in our own.

As this thread rumbles on I find myself still none the wiser as to how to explain these rapes without discussing gender, culture or immigration - which I thought was the original purpose of the thread.

The OP seems to be taking a backseat.

I'm interested to see the impact this issue has in the polls in Germany today. I expect the far right to do well.

'Is Lalalili racist to feel less safe in her home now there are large groups of young men from backward misogynistic cultures hanging round the streets, emily? Perhaps you could tell the women of Ostersund how racist they are now they're being told that they should stay indoors to avoid being raped by the men their government invited to their country'.

Shins, first of all, the assumption that the young men are from 'backwards misogynistic cultures' seems quite a racist generalisation.

Attacks on women by strangers in public are rare. Not feeling safe in one's home because of what may happen outside it seems quite irrational. There is no evidence that men from particular cultures or ethnicities are more likely to publicly attack women, so beliefs on the contrary, that are not based in fact do appear to be based in fear and racism.

Oh, emily, do go and read that Pew study

Here are some quotes to save you having to follow the link:
Across the Middle East and North Africa, fewer than half of Muslims say sons and daughters should receive the same inheritance shares. (Daughters tend to get less).
Muslims in most countries surveyed say that a wife should always obey her husband. In 20 of the 23 countries where the question was asked, at least half of Muslims believe a wife must obey her spouse.... Similarly, in all countries surveyed in the Middle East and North Africa, about three-quarters or more say the same.

Those attitudes belittle women and are misogynistic. Obviously not all people in those countries hold those attitudes, but that is the cultural milieu from which young MENA men come. To say that these cultures are misogynistic is not racist: it appears - on the basis of a survey of 35,000 people - to be, sadly, a statement of fact. I happen to think misogyny is backwards, myself. Do excuse me if I am mistaken.

Emily lalali said that she feels less safe because she has experienced groups of men hanging around on the streets, some of whom are not respectful or pleasant. Her feelings are directly related to her experience and aren't based on the ethnicity or religion of the men but on their behaviour.

What you are saying is that no one should ever feel threatened by men who are acting in a threatening manner if they happen to not be white because that is racist? Their 'victim' status trumps the right of women to be safe in your eyes.

Whoops, that should say Lalalili sorry

Positions in the UN gender equality index...

Germany 6
Sweden 12
Syria 118
Afghanistan 169

Shins, first of all, the assumption that the young men are from 'backwards misogynistic cultures' seems quite a racist generalisation

Can you provide some evidence that the countries where the men come from are not misogynistic please.

Emily, the countries from which most migrants come from are backward, religious, misogynistic and patriarchal. If I had the time, I could reel off stats about the position of women in North African and Middle Eastern countries, or share with you my own experiences of travelling there as a young woman or the many experiences of women who live in those countries. How on earth is that racist? Many Turks are indistinguishable physically from western Europeans for example.

I suppose MENA region feminists like Mona Eltawy or Maryam Namazie or Nawal el Saadawi are racist? Women who have written and spoken and campaigned tirelessly against the oppressive sexism of their countries and who have faced death threats and exile as a result? You aren't fit to clean their shoes.

Shins, I have read quite a bit about some of the cultures involved here. And the plight of the women therein.

But, Emily has said "the assumption that the young men are from 'backwards misogynistic cultures' seems quite a racist generalisation"

So, I think its up to Emily to give us some links of cultures/countries involved that proves they are NOT misogynistic, don't you?

i think the "backwards" bit sits uneasily to me. No denying there is misogyny.

emilybohemia

"Your conversation still sounds racist by the way and far from 'sensible.'"

Crying racism is no longer the magic bullet that the far left can use to silence any debate and win any argument - people have seen through that gaslighting bullshit.

Mide7

"i think the "backwards" bit sits uneasily to me. No denying there is misogyny."

So misogyny should be called "progressive", then? Or perhaps we could have a discussion based in reality instead?