Trans women as NUS Women's Officer- Part 2

[StinkyPie]

Last few posts from Part 1;
sieReturningParker

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

Today 16:19 ShortcutButton

4th if Anna and Sarah were TRUELY allies of women then they would seek to address the concerns that women are expressing in reasoned tones, over and over and over again in varies forums

Instead, they held an emergency meeting (this is before my poutburst) and decided the beast course of action was not to respond to women

How can you consider that approach to be the action of people that understand women, align with women, want to advocate for women????

Think of it as a personal relationship. Your lover or friend is expected to support and care for you. The person is acting in a way that you feel is not in your best interests. You attempt to start a conversation with your friend/lover to discuss this. They totally blank you and refuse to acknowledge that you even spoke

How do yuou feel about that person? Are they your friend?

Taking the analogy further...you get frustrated that you are being silenced and your concerns ignored and have a short aggressive outburst

NOW that person is listening to you. Telling everyone how violent and scary you are. Using this as an excuse for never having to listen to you again...a reason noone should take your opinion seriously...

How do you feel about that person now? That's an abusive narcissist personality type

Today 16:17 VincentVanLowe

They know you aren't threatening them. Your post was clearly making a point about the difference between criticism and concern versus threatening and harassment. The latter is what women are subjected to every day by trans activists. The former is what Lee and Noble have been busy deleting and dismissing as 'bigotry'. They've chosen to misrepresent posts here and elsewhere in order to play act like they believe a bunch of women posting on mumsnet are actually any sort of physical threat to them, two good sized males with plenty of media backing - it's farcical, we all know it is.

Today 16:16 PrettyBrightFireflies

4th - so why wouldn't you support a man in the role of NUS Womans Officer ?

If having experience is not relevant to the role, then what is the difference between a trans-woman and a man in fighting for the Annafesto?

And that brings us full circle pretty

Because I think probably all of us here don't care how people identify or dress or whatever

Segregation has never been based on how a person identifies. Segregation has been done based on sex. We separate male bodies from female bodies because female bodies are smaller/weaker/slower/can get pregnant and male bodies are more prone to sexual violence/faster/stronger. So that sport is fairer/women are safer

Identifying as a woman does not magically erase your male anatomy &physiology

And if we are forced to ignore biology, then there is absolutely no point in segregation or feminism AT ALL

I love the "if there were multiple RD's it would be a minority" from hq. What smaller minority is there than 1?

Yy. If its really all in the mind, and biology is no longer binary, then get rid of segregation. Dont think you can just come in our half!

That thinking isn't really relevant, JAPAB, because there are no differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals physically

The question was put to people who are not trans-skeptic. If you believe that men and women are concepts referring entirely by physical differences in physical bodies then clearly for you there will be no difference between transwomen and men. But then you are "trans-skeptic".

So, Rachel Dolezal is black if she identifies as black?

That doesn't really make a lot of sense on first inspection. Black is a colour, and in "Black person" means that the person has black skin. A white person claiming to have black skin would be like a person with a XX chromosome saying that they have an XY chromosome. Not that they want one but already actually have one.

I agree Iamwhateveryousayiam. Because japab has stated that I am supposed to reliquish my safe women-only spaces, my daughters' and my mother's safe spaces, on an IDEA? And ideaology not unlike a religion? Rather than on a factual need ? I will fight tooth and nail to avoid that happening. I am not having my 11 year old daughter share a changing room with a man, who is in no demonstrable way any different from any other man, just because that man can say that he feels like a woman on that particular day. Ffs. Its like feminism never happened.

I've been catching up on posts and linbjs etc today

It occurs to me that SN is very disparaging and dismissive of white feminists and white feminism. It is hugely inappropriate then that she is involved in representing NUS women at a national level...who are over whelmingly white

And japab, not all people who have black heritage have black skin. What nonsense.

"A white person claiming to have black skin would be like a person with a XX chromosome saying that they have an XY chromosome. Not that they want one but already actually have one."

Or a person with XY chromosomes (= are male) claiming they have XX chromosomes (= are female). Not that they want XX chromosomes and want to be female, but that they actually are female. That is crazy, isn't it? So glad we never see that happening.

Oh wait...

Hennifer, I completely agree that Anna Lee is a human and therefore worthy of the same respect due to all human beings. I, and everyone else on this thread I'd assume understands and accepts Anna's humanity. I would bet my house on the fact that everyone on this thread would abhor violence or discrimination being perpetrated toward Anna, or indeed any trans person.

What we don't have to do is validate Anna's wish to be seen as being a woman. They aren't a woman, they are a MtT or transwoman. And, in this case, they are a transwoman who wishes to not only appropriate women's experiences, but also to be seen as representing women students and women's concerns.

Me and dh were discussing the other day - his current 'monologue' is religion, whereas i'm discussing trans-sceptism. We realised that we are actually fighting against the same thing (and this may be ridiculously obvious to some!), laws being made and rights given based on thoughts and feelings rather than facts.

So, in a society that has already historically based its judicial system on religion, adding laws based on how some men 'feel' isnt a massive leap.

"The only necessary difference between a homosexual and a heterosexual might just be in the "being". Sure you might expect to "see" things, certain external manifestations that will allow you to correctly infer which person is which, but there are no guarantees of that."

Nobody expects to see external manifestations of who one is attracted to, which is what homosexuality is about.

If a male claims to be a woman, you bet there will need to be some external manifestations otherwise it's all in their head, no different than DS (6) claiming he is a cat.

He has been saying this for a while, meowing all over the house & wanting his belly scratched etc but funny enough I haven't given him a cat name & started feeding him cat food.

If I was childless, I could say "I identify as a mother" but that wouldn't magically make it true, it wouldn't turn me into someone who has mothered a child.

Ah, but the argument is more nuanced than that. "Being a mother" is not a binary state, any more than being a woman is.
You can be a mother by giving birth to a child, by adopting a child, by losing a child in pregnancy, by raising a child, by fostering a child, by having a child by a surrogate....... it is not as simple as it initially sounds.

And, my understanding of trans-women identifying as women is similar. The belief is that "being a woman" is a complex and multi-faceted definition and that it can include people who are biologically male.

I suppose you have all seen Clare Derbyshire, the daughter who murdered her father?

I don't watch the news, I only listen to the radio (mainly Radio4). So all day yesterday, the news reports had as a lead story the terrible details of the daughter who murdered her poor father.

And then I happened to see her photo on the BBC website today.

^Or a person with XY chromosomes (= are male) claiming they have XX chromosomes (= are female). Not that they want XX chromosomes and want to be female, but that they actually are female. That is crazy, isn't it? So glad we never see that happening.

Oh wait...^

We do have that happening? People do claim to be female when what they themselves mean by the term is "I have an XX chromosome". That would be crazy if that is what they meant.

Yes I agree Maryz.

I don't know why that photo didn't load. Try again

An adoptive mother is still a mother - i.e. a female parent.

A transwoman is not a woman - i.e. an adult human female - because they are not female (= of the sex that can bear young or make eggs).

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.” Source: "Through the Looking Glass" Lewis Carroll.

How prescient of him in 1872.

Lynda! That is her?!!! And that will be on the crime stats as woman on man violence?

Jesus wept

Yep. "Claire".

cote But it entirely depends on what the accepted definition of a mother is as to whether an adoptive mother is a mother or not. If the accepted definition of mother is "someone who has borne children" then an adoptive mother is not considered a mother.

The same is true in this case. The trans-lobby are challenging our definition of a woman and saying that is is wider than just "being female".