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Original poster

Trans women as NUS Women's Officer- Part 2

504 replies

StinkyPie · 26/02/2016 16:30

Last few posts from Part 1;
sieReturningParker

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

Today 16:19 ShortcutButton

4th if Anna and Sarah were TRUELY allies of women then they would seek to address the concerns that women are expressing in reasoned tones, over and over and over again in varies forums

Instead, they held an emergency meeting (this is before my poutburst) and decided the beast course of action was not to respond to women

How can you consider that approach to be the action of people that understand women, align with women, want to advocate for women????

Think of it as a personal relationship. Your lover or friend is expected to support and care for you. The person is acting in a way that you feel is not in your best interests. You attempt to start a conversation with your friend/lover to discuss this. They totally blank you and refuse to acknowledge that you even spoke

How do yuou feel about that person? Are they your friend?

Taking the analogy further...you get frustrated that you are being silenced and your concerns ignored and have a short aggressive outburst

NOW that person is listening to you. Telling everyone how violent and scary you are. Using this as an excuse for never having to listen to you again...a reason noone should take your opinion seriously...

How do you feel about that person now? That's an abusive narcissist personality type

Today 16:17 VincentVanLowe

They know you aren't threatening them. Your post was clearly making a point about the difference between criticism and concern versus threatening and harassment. The latter is what women are subjected to every day by trans activists. The former is what Lee and Noble have been busy deleting and dismissing as 'bigotry'. They've chosen to misrepresent posts here and elsewhere in order to play act like they believe a bunch of women posting on mumsnet are actually any sort of physical threat to them, two good sized males with plenty of media backing - it's farcical, we all know it is.

Today 16:16 PrettyBrightFireflies

4th - so why wouldn't you support a man in the role of NUS Womans Officer ?

If having experience is not relevant to the role, then what is the difference between a trans-woman and a man in fighting for the Annafesto?

OP posts:
Clonakiltylil · 27/02/2016 13:16

It's my opinion. Hennifer. I am entitled to it. The transgender debate is now at the point where the views of women are being sidelined, whereas the views of Anna Lee formed part of Maria Miller's recent report. So yes, I'm angry, but I have a right to be.

Do I consider Anna Lee et al to be women? Certainly not. So - what am I to call a man in a dress and a bad wig? I call him what I have called him ever since the 80s.

And since when was it an insult to call someone a trannie? It used to be quite endearing.

Hennifer · 27/02/2016 13:22

It's insulting because it's completely reductive.

Cocolepew · 27/02/2016 13:26

Just marking my place Smile

lionheart · 27/02/2016 13:27

Your point about belief and religion/science is interesting HLC.

I was thinking about this debate and the question of language.

Transphobia seems to be an extremely reductive term, especially when it is used to close down debate or different opinions.

I think threads like this and others that have appeared on MN and elsewhere as examples of trans-skepticism. The debates , the questioning, the discussion all relate to this rather than an irrational fear or hatred of otherness.

lionheart · 27/02/2016 13:27

That's interesting HLC. I was thinking about this debate and the question of language. Transphobia seems to be an extremely reductive term, especially when it is used to close down debate or different opinions.

I think threads like this and others that have appeared on MN and elsewhere as examples of trans-skepticism. The debates , the questioning, the discussion all relate to this rather than an irrational fear or hatred of otherness.

DeoGratias · 27/02/2016 13:44

" OhShutUpThomas Fri 26-Feb-16 19:59:59

I've always thought that the roots of misogyny come from, in part at least, an intense jealousy of women's bodies, and ability to reproduce."

Indeed - the vagina as all powerful (the clitoris also as a bigger sex organ than the penis - most of it is hidden); the ability of women to reproduce. The fear of men that they will not know who fathered "their" children; the way the vagina encloses and in a sense grabs hold of the penis in vaginal sex etc. I am sure these are all parts of what some men subsconsciously feel and why they have introduced rules and invented Gods to control women, their sexual freedom and women's power and freedom.

DeoGratias · 27/02/2016 13:45

" OhShutUpThomas Fri 26-Feb-16 19:59:59

I've always thought that the roots of misogyny come from, in part at least, an intense jealousy of women's bodies, and ability to reproduce."

Indeed - the vagina as all powerful (the clitoris also as a bigger sex organ than the penis - most of it is hidden); the ability of women to reproduce. The fear of men that they will not know who fathered "their" children; the way the vagina encloses and in a sense grabs hold of the penis in vaginal sex etc. I am sure these are all parts of what some men subsconsciously feel and why they have introduced rules and invented Gods to control women, their sexual freedom and women's power and freedom.

DeoGratias · 27/02/2016 13:53

No idea why that posted twice!

SirVixofVixHall · 27/02/2016 15:16

I would love for someone who isn't trans-sceptic, to come and tell me what precisely is the difference between Anna Lee and any other man. As far as I can see, the only difference is the dress. Although plenty of men from other cultures and our own may also wear dress-like garments. Plenty of men have long hair, many hetero non-trans men wear makeup. Most men are attracted to women sexually. So what makes Anna a woman, and my DH not a woman. The desire to be a woman? We make policy on someone's wishful thinking now? The saying "I am a woman". Does saying something out loud make it true then? The living "as a woman"? How is such a thing even possible? The only way you can live as a woman, is by being a woman, as we all live in diverse ways. As a pp said, Anna does not resemble a woman at all, so the reactions of others socially will be towards Anna as a man, not as a woman. There isn't going to be any confusion. So HOW is Anna a woman, and my dH, or my brother, or the man next door, something else?

MagicalRealist · 27/02/2016 15:17

I think it's foul to be so derogatory about someone as to call them that, with all the sentiment that term carries, and yes, it ought to be deleted.

I think posts like that should be deleted because they play into the hands of those who seek to paint any questioning of the trans agenda as hateful trolling.

That's what happened with the last thread where that Sarah person jumped on one particular post, screenshot it onto Twitter and used it to claim that she was getting a barrage of abuse from terfs, that she feared for her safety etc.

Posts like that are a gift to trans activists.

Clonakiltylil · 27/02/2016 15:36

Pardon my ignorance - and my age - but I am trying to understand why it is considered reductive. Refused to what, exactly? Maybe language has changed, but within the LGB community 30 or 40 years ago - my own background - even transexuals called themselves trannies. As I said, it was a term of endearment and considered mild. We all used it - all it would get you then was a wry smile and a shared giggle. I accept that in today's climate it might be considered inappropriate - I don't actually know why though. It's a genuine question.

Clonakiltylil · 27/02/2016 15:37

That should be 'reduced' and not 'refused.'

Clonakiltylil · 27/02/2016 15:38

SirVix - this is my problem entirely. And like you, I am open to being enlightened.

Maryz · 27/02/2016 16:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Iamwhateveryousayiam · 27/02/2016 16:03

sir and clon they do keep telling us time and time again

They does not need to be any physical difference between Anna and a man. The thing which means that Anna is irrefutibly a woman, is that she identifies as one

Maryz · 27/02/2016 16:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PrettyBrightFireflies · 27/02/2016 16:08

They does not need to be any physical difference between Anna and a man. The thing which means that Anna is irrefutibly a woman, is that she identifies as one

Yup - that's exactly what my DD said. And the fact that some men may abuse this, in order to gain access to women to commit offences against them, is not, apparently, a reason to withhold that access from self-identifying women.

It is scary indeed, maryz.

Clonakiltylil · 27/02/2016 16:17

Thank you to those who have clarified things.
In my day, a phobia was a fear (!)

It was not my intention to cause deliberate offence, so I apologise to those who understood this in its modern term; I did not know.

But my other points remain; a transgender woman is not a woman.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 27/02/2016 16:23

So, Rachel Dolezal is black if she identifies as black?

JAPAB · 27/02/2016 16:26

I would love for someone who isn't trans-sceptic, to come and tell me what precisely is the difference between Anna Lee and any other man. As far as I can see...

When it comes to core parts of one's being and identity, the only difference might well be that. The only necessary difference between a homosexual and a heterosexual might just be in the "being". Sure you might expect to "see" things, certain external manifestations that will allow you to correctly infer which person is which, but there are no guarantees of that.

Maryz · 27/02/2016 16:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SirVixofVixHall · 27/02/2016 16:29

Pretty- But what does "identify" even mean in this context? It doesn't seem to even need to be a permanent state. It seems that the normal use of identify to describe some thing that one is (e.g. I identify as a mother, because I am a mother) has been twisted to mean anything one would like to be. But wanting to be something doesn't make it the truth of what you are. If I was childless, I could say "I identify as a mother" but that wouldn't magically make it true, it wouldn't turn me into someone who has mothered a child.

Hennifer · 27/02/2016 16:29

Reduced to nothing more than what someone chooses to wear. People like Anna Lee, however wrong they are, are still human beings and still deserve to be spoken about with the humanity and respect due. He or she is a person and not just their clothes or hair. They may even agree with most of us, on some issues.

Perhaps you didn't mean to be inappropriate, but 'calling a spade a spade' is the sort of term frequently used by those who don't wish to examine the detail of a complex situation, which really, this is.

I think it's a bit lazy and doesn't add a great deal, if that makes sense.

And it's dismissive too. It puts people in a box, making it easier for us to metaphorically presume their feelings/sentiments/value (or kick them around I suppose, but I don't think that's the aim)

No offence intended.

Maryz · 27/02/2016 16:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SirVixofVixHall · 27/02/2016 16:30

Japab, there is a clear difference between a homosexual and a heterosexual!