Trans women as NUS Women's Officer- Part 2

[StinkyPie]

Last few posts from Part 1;
sieReturningParker

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

Today 16:19 ShortcutButton

4th if Anna and Sarah were TRUELY allies of women then they would seek to address the concerns that women are expressing in reasoned tones, over and over and over again in varies forums

Instead, they held an emergency meeting (this is before my poutburst) and decided the beast course of action was not to respond to women

How can you consider that approach to be the action of people that understand women, align with women, want to advocate for women????

Think of it as a personal relationship. Your lover or friend is expected to support and care for you. The person is acting in a way that you feel is not in your best interests. You attempt to start a conversation with your friend/lover to discuss this. They totally blank you and refuse to acknowledge that you even spoke

How do yuou feel about that person? Are they your friend?

Taking the analogy further...you get frustrated that you are being silenced and your concerns ignored and have a short aggressive outburst

NOW that person is listening to you. Telling everyone how violent and scary you are. Using this as an excuse for never having to listen to you again...a reason noone should take your opinion seriously...

How do you feel about that person now? That's an abusive narcissist personality type

Today 16:17 VincentVanLowe

They know you aren't threatening them. Your post was clearly making a point about the difference between criticism and concern versus threatening and harassment. The latter is what women are subjected to every day by trans activists. The former is what Lee and Noble have been busy deleting and dismissing as 'bigotry'. They've chosen to misrepresent posts here and elsewhere in order to play act like they believe a bunch of women posting on mumsnet are actually any sort of physical threat to them, two good sized males with plenty of media backing - it's farcical, we all know it is.

Today 16:16 PrettyBrightFireflies

4th - so why wouldn't you support a man in the role of NUS Womans Officer ?

If having experience is not relevant to the role, then what is the difference between a trans-woman and a man in fighting for the Annafesto?

JABAP - "We do have that happening? People do claim to be female when what they themselves mean by the term is "I have an XX chromosome". That would be crazy if that is what they meant."

That awkward moment when JABAP realizes years later the lunacy of the transactivist line

Yes, my friend. We do have transwomen claiming they are female, even going as far as saying their penises are "female dicks".

Since there is no other way to be female but physically, since the definition of the word female is of the sex that can bear young or make eggs, they are also claiming to have XX chromosomes although they have XY chromosomes.

I am glad to see that you have finally come on the same page as the rest of us and sincerely hope that you will carry this moment of clarity with you going forward on FWR board

Yes mother isn't the best analogy for me to have used, although i did mean it in all its forms, to include anyone who has mothered, for however short a time, even in utero, or by other methods than birthing. I meant to say that wishing something (motherhood, or anything else) to be true can't make it magically appear, and I should have thought of a less ambigious concept. If I wanted to be seven foot six tall, desiring it wouldn't make it true, and saying "I need a seat with extra legroom, because i am unusually tall" would be greeted with disbelief, and i would be considered delusional. How is that any different to someone saying "I would like to be a woman"? Turning that into "therefore I am a woman" is delusional.

there's whole thread on this "lady"

Can someone link the maths, i tried to write it but it looked like a load of bollocks!

Demonstrating how many female:mtt prisoners there would be, given the stats for offending

Yep Vix.

The BBC didn't mention the word trans in their web article either although now I see they have added that she was born a man under the photo but that wasn't there originally.

In the rolling news on R4, she was described as a woman and a daughter and there was no mention of the fact that she is a man who has changed her name. Because that's all you need to do apparently to be the other sex.

Ah is there? Thanks Grimble. Not been online much today

Nobody expects to see external manifestations of who one is attracted to, which is what homosexuality is about

Exactly, core parts of your being and identity can be internal in the sense of not having a physical manifestation or being objectively testable or the person being obligated to behave or dress in any particular way.

If a male claims to be a woman, you bet there will need to be some external manifestations otherwise it's all in their head

Perhaps you could draw up a list of the bare minimum of behaviours/dress/whatever that every woman is expected to exhibit, then hand it to suck people. But I suspect that this might be like trying to create such a list for homosexuals.

sirvix Actually, I think the analogy with motherhood was spot on because the whole premise behind this debate is whether gender (as opposed to biological sex) is binary or not.

The debate is muddied by the fact that the term woman and female have become interchangable, when they actually refer to different things, but like a pp said, I am sceptical enough to believe that if society rebranded segragated spaces a "female only" then it wouldn't be long before the trans-community began to approrpiate that word and redefine it, too.

With the help of my DD, I have reached a point where I think I understand the position of Anna, Sarah et al, but no matter how well I understand it, I cannot agree with it.

Or "such people", even.

Lynda: it's "The "daughter" who murdered her father who had MS"

Woman doesnt mean gender though, it means adult human female (ie sex)? There isnt really a word for what people are thinking woman means here. Effeminate, maybe?

JAPAB - surely the list for gay people is very easy and very short: they fancy people of their own sex. There doesn't need to be any other aspect of behaviour or appearance associated with that .

Not "thinking", that sounds wrong.
"Using" maybe - what posters are using 'women' to mean

Woman doesnt mean gender though, it means adult human female

That is by no means clear, though - much of the material being published by the Government and statutory organisations use the term to describe a transexual person who has transitioned.

And what about the term daughter? does that refer to biology? Certainly not according to the BBC and other mainstram media outlets who have used it to describe the trans-woman in the news today.

The Lewis Carol quote was v. prescient, I agree!

Feminine. The word is Feminine boot

JAPAB
being homosexual and being transgendered are completely different. Neither are outwardly indicated but that's the only comparison. Being a homosexual man is of relevance only to the man himself and the men he has sex with. Not all males are heterosexual, but all males have XY chromosomes. A homosexual man knows he's homosexual, and in that case his self identification is enough for us to accept he is homosexual, because that is all the proof that is required for this particular assertion.
A male who asserts that he is actually a woman is not the same, because feeling like a woman isn't the same as feeling you only want to have sex with men. Feeling sexual desire towards other men is proved by the fact of wanting to have sex with men. Feeling like a woman is objectively unverifiable because it is a state which a man, by definition, has no experience of.

Also - 'black' is not a physical description of skin colour. It is a socially constructed role based on perceived belonging to a particular social group. Many people appear as light skinned as a Caucasian person, lighter than some meditteraneans, but identify as black because they have black antecedents. My DS appears 'white' but may identify as black due to his black grandfather and mixed race father. It's a social and cultural label. So logically, there is no reason why Rachel D shouldn't have identified as black, because she felt an affinity towards that social group for various reasons, seemingly very profound reasons actually. But she's a crazy liar and 'Claire' up thread is a woman. Ok.

Oh yeah, of course it is

Feminine. The word is Feminine

Not all females would describe themselves as feminine, though, it defines only a subset of females - unlike the term woman, which encapsulates them all.

Perhaps you could draw up a list of the bare minimum of behaviours/dress/whatever that every woman is expected to exhibit

That's the whole point JAPAB

There is no requirement in behaviour/dress/whatever, to be a woman
The ^only requirement is biology

JABAP - "We do have that happening? People do claim to be female when what they themselves mean by the term is "I have an XX chromosome". That would be crazy if that is what they meant."

Yes, my friend. We do have transwomen claiming they are female, even going as far as saying their penises are "female dicks".

Which isn't the same as claiming that they have an XX chromosome or this being what they mean by the things you mention.

But if there actually are any transwomen who believe themselves to have an XX chromosome, then they would be just as odd as a person with non-black skin claiming that their skin is black.

I get the impression that it's not so much people claiming that they have XX or XY chromosomes, it is rather that they consider the chromosomal makeup irrelevant, or even a disadvantage - a woman who has an XY chromosome, for instance, is disadvantaged as she is unable to bear children, like an XX woman can?

Yy bright. I myself am not feminine. But that is the word for gender....feminine and masculine. It us that which isn't binary and is fluid...it is a spectrum. No one is 100% masculine or feminine, but women(sex) are expected to be feminine(gender) and men(sex) are expected to be masculine

Transgender people ACTUALLY just do decide to noit confirm to the gender stereotype associated with their sex. Which is great. But somewhere/somehow, it was THEN decided that if you adopt the opposite gender stereotype (or a point on the spectrum closest to it) then you BECOME the sex associated with that gender stereotype. And that is BAD because it just REINFORCES GENDER STEREOTYPES.

Which is what feminists having been fighting forever

Just in the process of watching the link from MyCrispBag. Really interesting - not least because he says he thought he wanted to be a woman but in retrospect what he wanted was to not fulfil the role of a man in our society ie. he didn't want to be an asshole asshole. Interesting to think about why he viewed men as assholes before his transition (and certainly his view has not changed now).

asshole, not 'asshole asshole'