Opinions on sex - bear with me

[Thurlow]

A couple of threads on MN over the past few weeks have got me thinking seriously about some (or maybe just some MNs) opinions relating to sex. This isn't meant to be a TAAT or an attack on their opinions. But something about some of the opinions aired, or perhaps more of a general belief, has got me quite confused.

One was the airing, by several posters/people, of the opinion that any woman who says she enjoys partaking in a particular sex act is merely a "cool girl". In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they only think they do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality. This is hardly a completely weird sex act we're talking about. But there seem to be women who believe any woman who enjoys certain sexual acts - anal, facials etc - cannot possibly be doing it because they genuinely enjoy it, for whatever reason (physical, emotional i.e. submission etc).

Another was a very heated debate - that I was tempted to post this on, but thought a new thread on this board might be better - as regards situations where women don't feel like having sex with their partner. Now I'm not in any way advocating that anyone should ever have to engage in any form of sexual activity if they don't want to. No way. No one ever should.

But what struck me was that for almost all people in relationships, sex is one of the main things that differentiates your romantic relationship from a very close platonic relationship. For most people in a monogamous relationship, sex is the one thing you do only with your partner - whereas many people may also be as emotionally close to a friend or family member. Sex is also seen by many people as the real Big One when it comes to infidelity. Your partner having sex with someone else is generally unforgivable. It's one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else. Equally, everyone hopes that their partner finds them attractive and wishes to have sex with them. Someone being told that they are no longer attractive to their partner is an equally terrible thing within a relationship.

Yet on this thread about not having sex when you feel like, there was a very strong feeling from many posters that a husband (in this scenario) who asks his wife for sex, who attempts to initiate sex, is being unreasonably demanding. Completely unreasonably demanding. A sex pest, to some posters. That it is so out of order for a husband to fancy the idea of having sex with his wife. There was discussion of "pawing" in relation to a man making moves on a woman. (I will stress I completely agree with the general sentiment that if you're knackered after being with kids all day, you should completely be able to say "nope, too tired", and also that any respectful partner will just accept that). He would be totally out of order for making any kind of move towards physical intimacy. Hugging, touching, attempting to kiss, things that are surely what most people do to show affection and perhaps start to initiate sex, were just "pawing" and were demanding.

I know I'm waffling but I'm also trying to work out for myself what many of these opinions made me feel.

So - if we hope the person that we have chosen to build our life together with finds us sexually attractive, and wants to be intimate with us in a physical way, because physical and sexual intimacy is one of the main things that differentiates a partnership from a friendship... Why do many women see it as wrong that a man might hope to have sex with his wife? (Leaving aside for a brief moment men who don't take no for an answer). Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?

And why do some women seem to believe (again, just judging by comments) that any man who would like to have sex is, essentially a sex pest? As if women don't feel like that too? Which tied in, in my mind, with that whole "cool girl" concept in relation to women liking anal sex, for example.

I'm not sure I've explained this properly but I've come away from MN over the past few weeks feeling that a lot of women don't seem to agree with the simple idea that both men and women have libidos and sexual tastes: men just want to "have sex", rather than be intimate with their partner; and women just put up with it when they feel they ought too, and should have a liking for anything other than "making love".

Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone else felt like this?

Interesting thread Thurlow. Timely, because I was thinking about this myself this morning while reading a thread on relationships.

I struggle sometimes on those threads, because there does seem to be an immediate jump to the sex-pest/borderline rapist, which sometimes (depending on the language of the OP) I do agree with.

Sometimes however, I think that it's not. To me, it's OK for someone to not particularly be in the mood for sex, and for the other person to try and put them in the mood, by kissing, touching etc to turn them on.

For me at least, it's not always the case that not being in the mood for sex means it's a definite "no, do not touch me".

DP spending some time on me is just what I need to put me in the mood. And I'm always pleased to have been persuaded because I enjoy it.

Sometimes the woman might be initially reluctant but want to be put in the mood, sometimes that is by touching, hugging etc, or maybe by the man doing the dishes or hoovering or whatever.

Of course if someone absolutely does not want to be touched and the man just tries to force himself that's entirely different. But (I hope) that's not what happens in the majority of relationships.

But surely if someone is happy with being persuaded then they're not going to start a thread saying they're not happy Aye?

The issue around facials and anal is not that some women like them. It's that some women who don't like them do them anyway because they feel they have to.
Of course no woman should be pressured into doing something she doesn't want to do, but often on the threads where this is discussed, women who post to say that they do genuinely enjoy these acts are told that they cannot possibly enjoy it themselves, they are only doing it to please their partner and they are trying to be a 'cool wife'
There is no need to provide links to posts where this has happened because there are plenty of us here who have been on the receiving end of such insulting comments.

Being continuously harassed when you clearly aren't interested is unacceptable. However, I don't think it is fair in a relationship, for one person to constantly refuse any kind of sexual contact without a good level of communication to understand why. If one partner has a higher sex drive than the other, they need to have an honest and open discussion to work out a reasonable balance,

I hate it when I see things like "He only wants to do that because he watches a lot of porn", like porn invented anal sex and facials and no-one could possibly think of doing them of their own accord!

they need to hear that it's ok to say no. That they don't have to say yes just because the whole weight of society is telling them to.
The whole weight of society? No, half of the society is telling them that only sluts do that.
I do agree that people need to have the confidence to say no, but some of those threads are posting because they are genuinely curious and would like to try something, but they are a little bit unsure so welcome advice from people who have tried it. And a man telling his partner that he wants to try something, doesn't mean that he is a dick who is pressurising her. Boundaries can get moved over the years with a little gentle encouragement. "I'd really love to try...." is not coercion.

we know that teenage girls are being pressured into anal sex
Yes they are - but that's not the fault of women who genuinely enjoy it. It's not that the act itself is wrong, it's the lack of understanding about what consent is and why you should never feel that you HAVE to do something because your partner wants it. If that means the relationship ends then that is the right thing to happen.

Well said HandbagCrazy
There was a recent thread where one poster said that a particular act reduced women to desperate dogs, and that it makes men feel powerful to watch use degrade ourselves for their pleasure.
It's that kind of comment that I find really offensive. If you don't want to do it, don't do it, but don't sit in judgement of the men and women who do enjoy it.

But Logical, honestly, sometimes it is that the man wants to degrade the woman.

They really aren't trying to encourage her because they think she'll enjoy it. A cursory look at the PUA forums shows you that.

It's about power, control and "owning" the woman. Sometimes it's described as "treating her like the dirty slut she is".

I like dominating a man. It is about power and control as that's sexy. It isn't degrading.

On a purely personal level (and note this is NOT connected to any 'branch' of feminism) a man telling me he'd like yo ejaculate on my face would change my opinion of him and not in a good way.

I have asked men to. It is just like men wanting face sitting. Nothing sexier than watching men wank/come. It's a visual thing to watch that is the turn on.

strange opinions that I've never seen expressed

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sex/2562892-The-taste-of-spunk

Page 2

"Bleurgh it's ick. It's not something I ever do. I'm 40 years old and I'm not swallowing that stuff just to please...not that dh expects me to.

Why do men get turned on by seeing women ingest their foul tasting, slimy semen? It reduces us to desperate dogs. Maybe that's what they like...watching us degrade ourselves for their pleasure. Maybe it makes them feel all powerful. Fuck knows."

So because I like swallowing, I'm a "desperate dog". And dp only likes it because men love it when "degrade ourselves for their pleasure".

Completely agree with op!

Sorry page 1.

Gosh - I feel my DH and I are very dull.

Anyway - is there a problem with any of this as long as it is fully consensual and there aren't power needs outside sex.

I was with an abusive, controlling man many years ago. Our sex life was very mainstream. The two don't always go hand in hand IMHO

I don't get that kind of attitude, although I have seen men say they don't like giving women oral. I couldn't marry a man like that though, it would ruin your life.

I have heard it shouting loudly about not being herded silently along into men's fantasies and believing them to be our own.

It concerns me that fantasies are often considered to be gendered especially on feminism threads. Can men an women only have fantasies that are appropriate to their gender?

There is a conversation on consent to be had but I do believe we would be better off having it without assuming that everyones tastes and sexual experience is uniform.

So I'm guessing you don't believe the male gaze?

That person clearly doesn't like oral, lazy, but why do you care? She may think it's degrading but you clearly don't so there's no issue, surely?

Currently I feel women can't really win this one, no matter where someone chooses to stand philosophically the rebuttals and criticisms are legion. It almost doesn't matter what you choose you will be criticised.

It's not entirely without pressure for men either. I was educated at an all boys school and if you weren't on board with the casual objectification you had a lot of social ostracism to look forward to, oh and standard presumptions of homosexuality.

Granted as an adult that pressure seems to have completely evaporated, but I distinctly remember it and empathise with anyone who feels pressure to conform.

In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they onlythinkthey do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality

Linked post was an example of posters who think like this. That something as vanilla as swallowing is an act intended by men, to make us "degrade ourselves for their pleasure".

It's about power, control and "owning" the woman. Sometimes it's described as "treating her like the dirty slut she is".
And what if the woman derives genuine pleasure from it?
Lots of women (and men) find handing over control to their partner immensely pleasurable. As long as consent has been gained and the couple trust each other, then it's a win-win.

That person clearly doesn't like oral, lazy, but why do you care? She may think it's degrading but you clearly don't so there's no issue, surely?
If she doesn't like oral and wishes to post that she personally would find it degrading, then there would be no issue, but that's not what she said.
She made sweeping statements about the men and women who do it.
"It reduces us to desperate dogs"
"watching us degrade ourselves for their pleasure"

And that's her opinion, but if you don't agree surely you just say 'I don't agree' and get on with your life? Surely you don't need the approval of a woman on the internet to feel ok about your sexual choices?

Unfortunately Sparrow, it is not normal for these things to be discussed. What is more "normal" is that one person gives signs and excuses, an honest conversation is not had and this leads to resentment of being pawed or being rejected. I think this is what the OP was talking about when she wrote about the responses to women who don't feel like having sex with their partner.

So one person expresses an opinion you disagree with-and which is quite offensive. Why don't you just ignore and move on?

The 'gatekeeper' idea implies that people have a right to sex and the person who says no is unreasonably blocking their way.

1. It is always about consent. Fairly simple really.

1. On the gatekeeper issue that is simply about compatibility - whether you are male or female you would be being a bit sllly if you have a high sex drive and marry someone who doesn't or vice versa. In most cases unless you've agreed a marriage without sex it is unreasonable unless you're ill or have just given birth unilaterally to decide there will no longer be sex in the marriage.

"So one person expresses an opinion you disagree with-and which is quite offensive. Why don't you just ignore and move on?"

That's most of us were doing before op started a discussion on the subject.

That's what*