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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Opinions on sex - bear with me

443 replies

Thurlow · 06/02/2016 19:59

A couple of threads on MN over the past few weeks have got me thinking seriously about some (or maybe just some MNs) opinions relating to sex. This isn't meant to be a TAAT or an attack on their opinions. But something about some of the opinions aired, or perhaps more of a general belief, has got me quite confused.

One was the airing, by several posters/people, of the opinion that any woman who says she enjoys partaking in a particular sex act is merely a "cool girl". In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they only think they do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality. This is hardly a completely weird sex act we're talking about. But there seem to be women who believe any woman who enjoys certain sexual acts - anal, facials etc - cannot possibly be doing it because they genuinely enjoy it, for whatever reason (physical, emotional i.e. submission etc).

Another was a very heated debate - that I was tempted to post this on, but thought a new thread on this board might be better - as regards situations where women don't feel like having sex with their partner. Now I'm not in any way advocating that anyone should ever have to engage in any form of sexual activity if they don't want to. No way. No one ever should.

But what struck me was that for almost all people in relationships, sex is one of the main things that differentiates your romantic relationship from a very close platonic relationship. For most people in a monogamous relationship, sex is the one thing you do only with your partner - whereas many people may also be as emotionally close to a friend or family member. Sex is also seen by many people as the real Big One when it comes to infidelity. Your partner having sex with someone else is generally unforgivable. It's one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else. Equally, everyone hopes that their partner finds them attractive and wishes to have sex with them. Someone being told that they are no longer attractive to their partner is an equally terrible thing within a relationship.

Yet on this thread about not having sex when you feel like, there was a very strong feeling from many posters that a husband (in this scenario) who asks his wife for sex, who attempts to initiate sex, is being unreasonably demanding. Completely unreasonably demanding. A sex pest, to some posters. That it is so out of order for a husband to fancy the idea of having sex with his wife. There was discussion of "pawing" in relation to a man making moves on a woman. (I will stress I completely agree with the general sentiment that if you're knackered after being with kids all day, you should completely be able to say "nope, too tired", and also that any respectful partner will just accept that). He would be totally out of order for making any kind of move towards physical intimacy. Hugging, touching, attempting to kiss, things that are surely what most people do to show affection and perhaps start to initiate sex, were just "pawing" and were demanding.

I know I'm waffling but I'm also trying to work out for myself what many of these opinions made me feel.

So - if we hope the person that we have chosen to build our life together with finds us sexually attractive, and wants to be intimate with us in a physical way, because physical and sexual intimacy is one of the main things that differentiates a partnership from a friendship... Why do many women see it as wrong that a man might hope to have sex with his wife? (Leaving aside for a brief moment men who don't take no for an answer). Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?

And why do some women seem to believe (again, just judging by comments) that any man who would like to have sex is, essentially a sex pest? As if women don't feel like that too? Which tied in, in my mind, with that whole "cool girl" concept in relation to women liking anal sex, for example.

I'm not sure I've explained this properly but I've come away from MN over the past few weeks feeling that a lot of women don't seem to agree with the simple idea that both men and women have libidos and sexual tastes: men just want to "have sex", rather than be intimate with their partner; and women just put up with it when they feel they ought too, and should have a liking for anything other than "making love".

Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone else felt like this?

OP posts:
fastingmum123 · 07/02/2016 11:02

Posiereturningparker this is exactly what I was trying to get at. They just keep trying harder and harder even if it's clear it's not what's wanted. I pretty much hate sex these days but that's another matter. Not all partners are able or willing to read the signs

TheSparrowhawk · 07/02/2016 11:02

They don't know Thurlow. But surely you see the difference between two loving partners who happily and kindly kiss and touch, then stop when it's clear it's not wanted and a partner who persistently grabs and gropes and doesn't stop or gets sulky when turned down?

TheSparrowhawk · 07/02/2016 11:04

Add to that the fact that some men actively enjoy having an unwilling partner and being refused actually turns them on.

BertrandRussell · 07/02/2016 11:05

"Re the touching, hugging, pestering - of course no one should put up with it if they don't like it. But if that used to be what a couple did pre-kids (as an example) and now one partner is too tired or "touched out" to enjoy it - surely just an adult conversation about it does the trick? The partner who does what he always used to - initiating physical intimacy to see if their partner would like sex, say - is do nothing wrong, just as the partner who says "no thanks, I'm too tired today" is doing nothing wrong either."

In the ideal world I mentioned earlier, where men and women are clear and comfortable about consent and saying yes and no and accepting yes and no, then of course you're right. And for many couples that does work. But if that was the case for everyone then presumably there wouldn't be a thread about it. A woman who posts has tried saying "no". Has tried the "adult conversation, and it hasn't worked. And the man in your scenario is doing nothing wrong the first time he tries it. It's when he doesn't accept the "no thanks I'm too tired" that there's an issue.

Ninjagogo · 07/02/2016 11:08

What an interesting thread! (shamelessly place marking) thanks for starting it OP.

fastingmum123 · 07/02/2016 11:09

I do also think there is a bit of a bit of a trend in society for feeling sorry for the poor man being denied sex. Like if a man cheats it's often blamed on his partner/wife for not giving him any. Which I feel may play a part in some women feeling like they have to fulfill a mans needs.

I'm not sure if this makes sense

TheSparrowhawk · 07/02/2016 11:12

Of course it does fasting. No one is ever owed sex, ever.

Thurlow · 07/02/2016 11:12

I think there is, fasting, definitely.

Bertrand - And the man in your scenario is doing nothing wrong the first time he tries it. It's when he doesn't accept the "no thanks I'm too tired" that there's an issue.

What I am talking about is when someone (man, in this case, but probably mainly because MN is a mainly female site) is seen as wrong simply for initiating sex.

OP posts:
TheSparrowhawk · 07/02/2016 11:14

No one here thinks a man is wrong for simply trying to initiate sex, as long as he does it kindly, stops when asked and doesn't sulk. So no one is arguing with you here really Thurlow.

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 11:18

Sometimes partners are wrong for "simply initiating sex"....

Here are some scenarios:

A is tired, A tells B that they are tired, feel low.... B hugs A from behind in a passionate hold

A has recently had a baby, A is feeling fat and unattractive, A lightly kisses B, B then tries to passionately kiss back , A backs off, B tries again

A has not really wanted sex the previous nine nights B has tried, last night A said in no uncertain terms they weren't up for sex, B tries anyway.

Noone comes to MN to moan about someone initiating sex a couple of times, it's overstepped the human decency mark by then and is in selfish I couldn't give a shit about what you want territory.

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 11:20

Actually it's not really that black and white is it? It's more about a lot off unspoken interaction, which by the sounds of it, some people don't understand.

If my DH kisses me either my eyes go immediately or they don't.... it's quite a good tell.

BertrandRussell · 07/02/2016 11:22

"What I am talking about is when someone (man, in this case, but probably mainly because MN is a mainly female site) is seen as wrong simply for initiating sex.".
I don't think I have ever seen that happen to be honest.

SlowFJH · 07/02/2016 11:24

Thurlow
This is one of the most sensible and balanced threads I have read here. Thank you.

HandbagCrazy · 07/02/2016 11:32

Fascinating thread OP.

I have NC to post here. I was lurking on a thread a while ago (I don't want to link to it) where an op talked about being asked to do something sexual that she was interested in but was unsure if she 'should.' The only reasoning she could give was that she was unsure.
Cue posters telling her the act is one of dominance, that her partner got the idea from porn, that he doesn't respect women, that there was no way she would like it. The general consensus was that she would be letting down women kind if she went ahead.
I didn't post but I wanted to. It is an act I enjoy but have struggled with. I am an independent woman, I believe I have the right to say no and be respected, but by the same token, I enjoy being submissive in bed. I get pleasure out of doing as I'm told and having DH give me orders. This doesn't negate my feminist beliefs, but there were posters who clearly think I shouldn't consider this as part of my sexuality as the ideas 'come from porn.' And incidentally this idea came from me!
I'm always amazed that posters who can so strongly advocate for women's right to say no have little understanding that we have just as much right to say yes

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 11:32

Slow.... Do you have anything to add, why is it sensible and balanced?

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 11:35

So on here, in the feminist section, someone inquired about sex of some description and was told "don't do it, you won't like it, you have no agency"?

Really?

You know what if within a relationship you are unsure about a particular sex act, coming to MN is a strange course of action. Most sex is intuitive and very basically about what people actually like....

Thurlow · 07/02/2016 11:40

I don't think I've seen threads like that in the feminist section, Posie. That would probably be a very different discussion to a thread like that on the Sex board, but I agree that simply coming on to MN to ask the question suggests that the person probably doesn't want to do it.

OP posts:
TheSparrowhawk · 07/02/2016 11:51

Fair and balanced? Some posters have said some other unnamed unquoted posters have ridiculous extreme views that they don't agree with. The only actual opinion is that it's fine to initiate sex as long as you back off if it's unwanted, which is the most uncontroversial view of sex you could possibly have.

HandbagCrazy · 07/02/2016 11:54

The thread was on the relationships board. And from the OPs comments I think her reluctance was more that she felt conflicted about the beliefs she has about herself and her rights and the submission required for the act iyswim

My point was that some women like to be submissive. Some do get pleasure from so called porn acts - why are their opinions less valid because it's not a mainstream point of view?
That thread was quite upsetting to read - and I have seen several like it. Even on the Sex topic, someone will post about something they enjoy but looking for specific suggestions and posters will turn up and tell her that she shouldn't be doing that / how can she enjoy that / it's degrading.

Men get a lot of the blame when it comes to slut-shaming etc but a lot of the time on mn it is women insulting other women's choices

DeoGratias · 07/02/2016 12:07

The difficult issue is always what is consent. I suspect we are all born with different sexualities and it can be hard to understand the different sexualities of others. I think you can bang your head up against a brick wall on it at times. Max Mosley was asked if his childhoo caused his sexuality. He said no - he was just born like that. That is my view too , same with those born feeling like a man in a woman's body or born feeling gay. I suspect we could do a lot more research on both genetics of sexuality and also how sexuality is affected by things like birth position in the family - eldest, middle etc and second by exposure to hormones in the womb.

However it should all come back to consent. Now was not English law which in my lifetime said a man couldn't rape his wife as she gave continuous consent to sex on marriage and so do most of the main religions (and that is wrong).

Roonerspism · 07/02/2016 12:14

Excellent post OP and I agree completely.

BertrandRussell · 07/02/2016 12:19

"There are soooooo many issues to be concerned about as a so-called feminist but to my mind, this really isn't one of them. It's why I regularly abstain from feminist discussions."

So you don't think issues around consent, sexuality,relationships and the impact of pornography are important discussion points for feminists?

Roonerspism · 07/02/2016 12:21

Yes, absolutely.

But not in the context the OP describes, no.
OP's post is spot on.

TheSparrowhawk · 07/02/2016 12:22

A facial is when a man ejaculates his semen onto a woman's face Rooner.

Roonerspism · 07/02/2016 12:22

Thank you

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