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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Opinions on sex - bear with me

443 replies

Thurlow · 06/02/2016 19:59

A couple of threads on MN over the past few weeks have got me thinking seriously about some (or maybe just some MNs) opinions relating to sex. This isn't meant to be a TAAT or an attack on their opinions. But something about some of the opinions aired, or perhaps more of a general belief, has got me quite confused.

One was the airing, by several posters/people, of the opinion that any woman who says she enjoys partaking in a particular sex act is merely a "cool girl". In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they only think they do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality. This is hardly a completely weird sex act we're talking about. But there seem to be women who believe any woman who enjoys certain sexual acts - anal, facials etc - cannot possibly be doing it because they genuinely enjoy it, for whatever reason (physical, emotional i.e. submission etc).

Another was a very heated debate - that I was tempted to post this on, but thought a new thread on this board might be better - as regards situations where women don't feel like having sex with their partner. Now I'm not in any way advocating that anyone should ever have to engage in any form of sexual activity if they don't want to. No way. No one ever should.

But what struck me was that for almost all people in relationships, sex is one of the main things that differentiates your romantic relationship from a very close platonic relationship. For most people in a monogamous relationship, sex is the one thing you do only with your partner - whereas many people may also be as emotionally close to a friend or family member. Sex is also seen by many people as the real Big One when it comes to infidelity. Your partner having sex with someone else is generally unforgivable. It's one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else. Equally, everyone hopes that their partner finds them attractive and wishes to have sex with them. Someone being told that they are no longer attractive to their partner is an equally terrible thing within a relationship.

Yet on this thread about not having sex when you feel like, there was a very strong feeling from many posters that a husband (in this scenario) who asks his wife for sex, who attempts to initiate sex, is being unreasonably demanding. Completely unreasonably demanding. A sex pest, to some posters. That it is so out of order for a husband to fancy the idea of having sex with his wife. There was discussion of "pawing" in relation to a man making moves on a woman. (I will stress I completely agree with the general sentiment that if you're knackered after being with kids all day, you should completely be able to say "nope, too tired", and also that any respectful partner will just accept that). He would be totally out of order for making any kind of move towards physical intimacy. Hugging, touching, attempting to kiss, things that are surely what most people do to show affection and perhaps start to initiate sex, were just "pawing" and were demanding.

I know I'm waffling but I'm also trying to work out for myself what many of these opinions made me feel.

So - if we hope the person that we have chosen to build our life together with finds us sexually attractive, and wants to be intimate with us in a physical way, because physical and sexual intimacy is one of the main things that differentiates a partnership from a friendship... Why do many women see it as wrong that a man might hope to have sex with his wife? (Leaving aside for a brief moment men who don't take no for an answer). Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?

And why do some women seem to believe (again, just judging by comments) that any man who would like to have sex is, essentially a sex pest? As if women don't feel like that too? Which tied in, in my mind, with that whole "cool girl" concept in relation to women liking anal sex, for example.

I'm not sure I've explained this properly but I've come away from MN over the past few weeks feeling that a lot of women don't seem to agree with the simple idea that both men and women have libidos and sexual tastes: men just want to "have sex", rather than be intimate with their partner; and women just put up with it when they feel they ought too, and should have a liking for anything other than "making love".

Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone else felt like this?

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 07/02/2016 12:36

I get the "reading signs" thing if it's a one off, but if it is a regular occurance, WTF? The one thing that sets a romantic relationship apart from all others is intimate touch.

If one partner no longer wishes to have that intimacy then they owe it to the other to have a conversation about it: what is wrong, what can be done etc. This "signs" business only leads to resentment from both parties.

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 12:43

So to be clear this was not a feminist discussion, but a discussion women were having?

And some women replied that the OP shouldn't do it, whatever it was?

And that's out of order because?

If someone starts a thread with "I've just tried Koala love sex position and it was great..." I don't think anyone is going to say she's a traitor to her gender. (Koala love, don't google I just made it up)

However if someone starts a thread saying "my BF wants to try Koala love and I'm really not sure, I feel like I'm really not the Koala type"... then the answers would be very different. Especially if Koala love was something mainly occurring in mainstream porn.

Branleuse · 07/02/2016 12:52

Sometimes im in the middle of sex, enjoying myself, and then the thought pops into my head "ARE YOU SURE YOU LIKE THIS FOR YOUR OWN REASONS AND NOT JUST BECAUSE HE LIKES IT" and then i know Im on mumsnet too often, and have to bring myself back to the moment and stop giving a fuck about my reasons for liking something, but just accepting that I do

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/02/2016 13:05

I do also think that there is a bit of a trend in society to feel sorry for the poor man being denied sex.

I feel sorry for anyone in a relationship with a sexual gatekeeper. It is an unhealthy dynamic.

BertrandRussell · 07/02/2016 13:09

So, hang on. These are not threads on feminist boards, or posts written by self identified feminists, but they are being used as a stick to beat feminists with? Or am I missing the point?

SlowFJH · 07/02/2016 13:19

I don't see anyone "using a stick to beat feminists with". You can have a civil conversation without the need for violent imagery.

timelytess · 07/02/2016 13:26

I've only read the opening post.

Its a matter of degree, OP. A partner who tries respectfully to initiate sex (without groping, without trying to get on top of someone who is asleep etc etc) and who, if the other partner is unwilling, backs off without complaint, sulks, abusive comments - that person isn't a sex pest. One who grabs, gropes, complains sulks, coerces, and takes what is not freely given, that one is sex pest.

Women are free to like or dislike whatever they wish, sexually as well as otherwise, but they are influenced/conditioned through socialisation to value, accept and want certain things. At the moment its ok to want to have your body surgically adapted to please men, but not to breastfeed; its ok to accept anal sex but not ok to have no interest in even trying it. And so on.

MN posters are influenced by each other in the views they express. If they think they can browbeat someone they all pile in. Its not about opinion, its about bullying.

The blog about women not giving in to sex was one I found refreshing to read. Its absolutely true that women should not have to 'give in' for the sake of a quiet life. But a lot of men (and apparently, women too) see marriage/living together as a deal whereby a woman gets lodging and children and pays with housework and sex. How can we change that?

OP, you say you see threads where the man is wrong for initiating sex. I haven't seen those and I read MN fairly often. But I do see a lot of threads where women are enduring behaviour which is abusive just because they are in a long-term relationship.

DeoGratias · 07/02/2016 13:29

timley, we can partly change that with women earning 10x what their man does as I did. I highly recommend it.

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 13:31

"I don't see anyone "using a stick to beat feminists with". You can have a civil conversation without the need for violent imagery."

A stick to beat X with is a common phrase, it's not "violent imagery" that aptly points out the idiocy of some comments referring to feminists, when it was women.

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 13:32

^^I do also think that there is a bit of a trend in society to feel sorry for the poor man being denied sex.

I feel sorry for anyone in a relationship with a sexual gatekeeper. It is an unhealthy dynamic.^^

Hmmm. Lots of issues with this. What is a sexual gatekeeper? Is that someone who only has sex when they want?

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/02/2016 13:37

No Posie, it is someone who unilaterally and without discussion decides how and when their partner has sex. It is a controlling dynamic.

The notion of women as sexual gatekeepers is one that many feminists have challenged.

SlowFJH · 07/02/2016 13:37

Posie
You sound angry.

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 13:39

Slow You sound passive aggressive and goady.

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 13:40

Dione. I would suggest it's akin to every other form of control and should be considered that way and not as part of the "I don't want sex" narrative.

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 13:40

Besides I'm not angry I'm listening to Krauss destroy Tzortzis.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/02/2016 13:47

When the "I don't want sex" narrative becomes an almost permanent feature in a relationship, it is about control. And it is sexual gatekeeping.

TheSparrowhawk · 07/02/2016 13:55

So if the person genuinely doesn't want sex dione,what should they do? Have sex anyway?

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 13:56

What so noone ever gets to a point where they no longer want sex?

Certain illnesses or hormonal or emotional changes should not interfere with your partners sex life?

BertrandRussell · 07/02/2016 14:08

"No Posie, it is someone who unilaterally and without discussion decides how and when their partner has sex. It is a controlling dynamic"

Who! So someone who does not want to have sex is "deciding how and when their partner has sex" and is therefore controlling?

Gwenhwyfar · 07/02/2016 14:13

"When the "I don't want sex" narrative becomes an almost permanent feature in a relationship, it is about control. And it is sexual gatekeeping."

No. You haven't been in every relationship. It could be for all sorts of reasons. You can't presume to talk for everyone in the world.

Roonerspism · 07/02/2016 14:14

Ummmmm is this thread not on Feminism Chat? I would therefore think it IS vaguely related to feminism?

To be honest, despite calling myself a feminist, it's not a place I like to dwell as I find the micro arguments depressing. Sorry.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/02/2016 14:17

Sparrow, they need to have a discussion with their partner. One where they are honest about their reasons for no longer wanting sex. They need to be aware that this decision alters the nature of the relationship. And IMHO see what they can do to make it better if the relationship is to continue.

It should not be a case of one person making a decision and expecting the other to just suck it up.

SlowFJH · 07/02/2016 14:24

Posie
"The idiocy of comments. ."
It's okay to disagree and have alternative point of view. It's aaalll good.

TheSparrowhawk · 07/02/2016 14:28

I agree with that Dione, I'm not sure anyone would disagree. What you're saying sounds like a totally normal interaction in a relationship. There's a problem, the partners talk, they sort it out. I don't know how that relates to the OP?

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 14:32

Slow.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do well I am but I'm too polite to call out your passive aggressive attempt at being goady and so I'll ignore.
I'll be an alternative to passive aggressive, which is aggressive and request that you grow the fuck up and contribute like an adult.

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