Opinions on sex - bear with me

[Thurlow]

A couple of threads on MN over the past few weeks have got me thinking seriously about some (or maybe just some MNs) opinions relating to sex. This isn't meant to be a TAAT or an attack on their opinions. But something about some of the opinions aired, or perhaps more of a general belief, has got me quite confused.

One was the airing, by several posters/people, of the opinion that any woman who says she enjoys partaking in a particular sex act is merely a "cool girl". In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they only think they do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality. This is hardly a completely weird sex act we're talking about. But there seem to be women who believe any woman who enjoys certain sexual acts - anal, facials etc - cannot possibly be doing it because they genuinely enjoy it, for whatever reason (physical, emotional i.e. submission etc).

Another was a very heated debate - that I was tempted to post this on, but thought a new thread on this board might be better - as regards situations where women don't feel like having sex with their partner. Now I'm not in any way advocating that anyone should ever have to engage in any form of sexual activity if they don't want to. No way. No one ever should.

But what struck me was that for almost all people in relationships, sex is one of the main things that differentiates your romantic relationship from a very close platonic relationship. For most people in a monogamous relationship, sex is the one thing you do only with your partner - whereas many people may also be as emotionally close to a friend or family member. Sex is also seen by many people as the real Big One when it comes to infidelity. Your partner having sex with someone else is generally unforgivable. It's one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else. Equally, everyone hopes that their partner finds them attractive and wishes to have sex with them. Someone being told that they are no longer attractive to their partner is an equally terrible thing within a relationship.

Yet on this thread about not having sex when you feel like, there was a very strong feeling from many posters that a husband (in this scenario) who asks his wife for sex, who attempts to initiate sex, is being unreasonably demanding. Completely unreasonably demanding. A sex pest, to some posters. That it is so out of order for a husband to fancy the idea of having sex with his wife. There was discussion of "pawing" in relation to a man making moves on a woman. (I will stress I completely agree with the general sentiment that if you're knackered after being with kids all day, you should completely be able to say "nope, too tired", and also that any respectful partner will just accept that). He would be totally out of order for making any kind of move towards physical intimacy. Hugging, touching, attempting to kiss, things that are surely what most people do to show affection and perhaps start to initiate sex, were just "pawing" and were demanding.

I know I'm waffling but I'm also trying to work out for myself what many of these opinions made me feel.

So - if we hope the person that we have chosen to build our life together with finds us sexually attractive, and wants to be intimate with us in a physical way, because physical and sexual intimacy is one of the main things that differentiates a partnership from a friendship... Why do many women see it as wrong that a man might hope to have sex with his wife? (Leaving aside for a brief moment men who don't take no for an answer). Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?

And why do some women seem to believe (again, just judging by comments) that any man who would like to have sex is, essentially a sex pest? As if women don't feel like that too? Which tied in, in my mind, with that whole "cool girl" concept in relation to women liking anal sex, for example.

I'm not sure I've explained this properly but I've come away from MN over the past few weeks feeling that a lot of women don't seem to agree with the simple idea that both men and women have libidos and sexual tastes: men just want to "have sex", rather than be intimate with their partner; and women just put up with it when they feel they ought too, and should have a liking for anything other than "making love".

Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone else felt like this?

For me the crux of the matter is enthusiasm and enthusiastic consent. Do I act after I am already enthusiastic (true for me sometimes, some acts, some situations) or does the act of starting something get me more enthusiastic as I get into it (again true for me sometimes, some acts, some situations).

Certainly a lot of people are like that, Slow. Not that keen but please their parnter and once it gets going they get into it. If you waited for the perfect moment (same as with the perfect time to have a child) you'd never do it and the less you do it the more out of the habit of it you become and the harder it becomes to have it which tends not to be good for relationships.

"I think it was SomeDyke that raised the issue of rape. "

I think what I said was that someone who was willing to have sex with someone who they knew had not whole-heartedly consented, was in my opinion equivalent to a rapist. It was though, commenting on behaviour that others had mentioned, which was frankly so bloody close to consenting non-consent as you could get.

The key issue here was not blaming the woman for doing whatever she saw fit to do to keep life and limb together, but commenting on the attitudes of the men prepared to use women as masturbation aids, and thinking that 'consent' obtained by whatever means made it all fine and dandy and a normal part of a loving marriage (or at least, part of a normal financial and services contract between adults).

"No one should have to have sex if they don't want to." No one would have to have sex they didn't want if no one was prepared to have sex with someone who they knew wasn't fully and freely consenting. It's the difference I suppose between laying there passively and thinking of England, and actively mounting them. I'd lay the majority of the blame on the non-passive person in this transaction.....................

I don't buy it. Yes, men who have sex with prostitutes should be ashamed of themselves, but a woman who is willingly having sex with someone she doesn't like just to support a life style should also be ashamed. These women (see the sugar daddies above) are not doing it to "keep life and limb" together, they are doing it because it gets them what they want. It perpetuates misogynistic attitudes and I am quite happy to blame them as well. Do you think all prostitutes are just lying on their back with their eyes shut ? We don't leave drug dealers alone and prosecute the users on the same basis that the "demand" is the problem and the suppliers are just victims of a capitalist system, I'm sick of feminists refusing to or being scared to be angry at women as well.

Why have you been unhappy with it Deo. I see nothing wrong with it. Are mutually beneficial relationship for both parties.

Do we need to be angry at anyone in order to be critical of the cultural landscape? Also men are perfectly capable of being gold diggers, but such gets very little traction in the zeitgeist as it is counter to the image of masculinity that exists.

We all make the most of our assets. I certainly would not ban housewives but women get more power and do better and perhaps protect their children better if they earn their own money and don't live off men.

I don't see why they should be ashamed. Everyone has different morals and priorities in life. Some people are materialistic.

Also in terms of "sugar daddies", some of these women are set up for life after a short relationship with these men. Cars, houses etc paid for.

"Men are perfectly capable of being gold diggers".

Ikf you have a moment take a look at any of the "Flash Car Prank" vids on YouTube...

Very average looking guy stand leaning against a Ferrari (or similar)... Gets lots of attention from passing women. When he asks them if they want to go out several accept. Then of course he walks to the jalopy (parked just behind the Ferrari) and the women invariably run a mile.

Not sure if this particular prank would ensnare as many men as it does women if the roles were reversed.

"We don't leave drug dealers alone and prosecute the users on the same basis that the "demand" is the problem and the suppliers are just victims of a capitalist system, "

That's exactly how we think of people who sell cigarettes though. The man in the corner shop is not to blame for all the customers killing themselves with tobacco.

My father is with a woman my age, like many Western men he went out to a poor country (in his case China, but could be Thailand, Romania or wherever) and left his wife for a younger local. Do I blame the women? Hmmmm, a life of absolute poverty or bagging a Westerner? Probably not. Do I blame him? Nope. I blame the structures that rule them both.

It's no accident that rich men bag beautiful young women, it's not the fault of the individual either... well expect very entitled wealthy men, who are mainly wankers, this is engendered currency. Equality will change these things with time, I hope.

Indeed which is why I bang on about women outearning men and the personal decisions we all make being political. The more often Posie's father equivalent has a first wife who earns multiples of what he does the less likely he'll leave his gravy train for someone else or if he does the less damage economically to his wife and family he will leave in his wake.

I am reading a book about Mormon history. The only wife of one group of 6 brothers who could stand up for herself was theo nly one who was educated and had a job. This is why I get so sad that so many mumsnetters day in day out give up good careers to go part and flexitime and say oh it's just a personal choice, just happens to be right in their relationship and yet time after time after time it's women making that career sacrifice not the men. The cumulative effect of this is to damage other women and their own daughters. You could argue there is a moral duty even if you don't like work or are offered the poisoned chalice of a life of leisure by the sugar daddy that instead for the good of others you take the harder path and carve out your own career.

It has been ever thus Deo, in real life and also in fiction (by women and for women). It's funny how Elizabeth Bennett only really starts to fall for Mr Darcy when she sees Pemberley. I know in those days women weren't allowed to work. But even in the modern era, I wonder if "Fifty Shades" would have sold as much if Christian Grey had arrived in a Honda (rather than a helicopter) to their first date.

Deo
Slight challenge to your view ..The more likely [man] has a wife who earns multiples of what she does the less likely he is to leave that gravy train . But (and) I think I read that women with SAHPs were the most likely to have affairs.

Just popped in to remark that every time I hear (or read) someone say that they fear for their sons in this context, I always think that the rest of the world needs to fear their sons.

Well thank you AskBasil. Thank you for popping in.

My son is using his dgree or not using it, by being a post man at present. he has virtually brought up his brothers and collects them from school. He will make a wonderful husband but not good provider. I wonder how many women on here would want their daughters to marry him for his looks and housewifery skills (he also cooks well and doesn't drink or smoke or stay out late). I would hope in an equal 2016 our daughters might like his good looks, fitness and childcare skills but the reality is we are not yet at equality where that will matter and instead he will be the man not leaning on a Ferrari and lots of graduate women will not be leaping to take him down the aisle.

Your son sounds wonderful Deo. I wish him every success and happiness in life. You too!