Opinions on sex - bear with me

[Thurlow]

A couple of threads on MN over the past few weeks have got me thinking seriously about some (or maybe just some MNs) opinions relating to sex. This isn't meant to be a TAAT or an attack on their opinions. But something about some of the opinions aired, or perhaps more of a general belief, has got me quite confused.

One was the airing, by several posters/people, of the opinion that any woman who says she enjoys partaking in a particular sex act is merely a "cool girl". In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they only think they do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality. This is hardly a completely weird sex act we're talking about. But there seem to be women who believe any woman who enjoys certain sexual acts - anal, facials etc - cannot possibly be doing it because they genuinely enjoy it, for whatever reason (physical, emotional i.e. submission etc).

Another was a very heated debate - that I was tempted to post this on, but thought a new thread on this board might be better - as regards situations where women don't feel like having sex with their partner. Now I'm not in any way advocating that anyone should ever have to engage in any form of sexual activity if they don't want to. No way. No one ever should.

But what struck me was that for almost all people in relationships, sex is one of the main things that differentiates your romantic relationship from a very close platonic relationship. For most people in a monogamous relationship, sex is the one thing you do only with your partner - whereas many people may also be as emotionally close to a friend or family member. Sex is also seen by many people as the real Big One when it comes to infidelity. Your partner having sex with someone else is generally unforgivable. It's one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else. Equally, everyone hopes that their partner finds them attractive and wishes to have sex with them. Someone being told that they are no longer attractive to their partner is an equally terrible thing within a relationship.

Yet on this thread about not having sex when you feel like, there was a very strong feeling from many posters that a husband (in this scenario) who asks his wife for sex, who attempts to initiate sex, is being unreasonably demanding. Completely unreasonably demanding. A sex pest, to some posters. That it is so out of order for a husband to fancy the idea of having sex with his wife. There was discussion of "pawing" in relation to a man making moves on a woman. (I will stress I completely agree with the general sentiment that if you're knackered after being with kids all day, you should completely be able to say "nope, too tired", and also that any respectful partner will just accept that). He would be totally out of order for making any kind of move towards physical intimacy. Hugging, touching, attempting to kiss, things that are surely what most people do to show affection and perhaps start to initiate sex, were just "pawing" and were demanding.

I know I'm waffling but I'm also trying to work out for myself what many of these opinions made me feel.

So - if we hope the person that we have chosen to build our life together with finds us sexually attractive, and wants to be intimate with us in a physical way, because physical and sexual intimacy is one of the main things that differentiates a partnership from a friendship... Why do many women see it as wrong that a man might hope to have sex with his wife? (Leaving aside for a brief moment men who don't take no for an answer). Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?

And why do some women seem to believe (again, just judging by comments) that any man who would like to have sex is, essentially a sex pest? As if women don't feel like that too? Which tied in, in my mind, with that whole "cool girl" concept in relation to women liking anal sex, for example.

I'm not sure I've explained this properly but I've come away from MN over the past few weeks feeling that a lot of women don't seem to agree with the simple idea that both men and women have libidos and sexual tastes: men just want to "have sex", rather than be intimate with their partner; and women just put up with it when they feel they ought too, and should have a liking for anything other than "making love".

Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone else felt like this?

If you're not going to quote anybody then discussing their views in a non-specific out-of-context way is pointless. This is partly why TAATs are discouraged.

My own opinion is that yes of course some women like facials and some women like anal - there is someone in the world to like absolutely everything.

The issue around facials and anal is not that some women like them. It's that some women who don't like them do them anyway because they feel they have to.

'Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?'

I see this as for sex, I wouldn't want to hug for no reason. I can see the rest of the world seems to like it without sex, but I haven't got any clue why they would! Why would anyone want anyone sitting there hugging them without sex. I really think I must actually be a man sometimes.

To answer your question that star just answered, it's actually the case that star and anybody else, man or woman, can refuse to be touched for whatever reason. A man might want to hug and kiss to see if their partner wants sex, but if their partner doesn't want that then it has to stop, no question. This may affect the relationship long term, definitely, but it is still the case that at no point does anyone have to put up with touching they don't want.

But I don't think it helps the problem.

It's doesn't matter what you are doing sexually if you don't like or enjoying it its a bad thing to be doing or for someone to be doing with/to you.

If you label things as good or bad based on "no woman really likes that" or "the practice comes from porn". It's easy to miss the bigger picture. "I can't possibly be being abused because that is a perfectly reasonable request" or conversely "I can't possibly enjoy that because no woman really does and is a porn practice so if I do there must be something wrong with me"

No means no. But not because it "comes from porn" or "no woman can possibly like" whatever. But Because it makes you feel uncomfortable.

As an aside to link to specific posters or posts would make it a thread about a thread or a personal attack; neither of which it us intended to be. I can also bet if anyone who has agreed with the OP were to link with a specific post we would all link to different posts. It's not about a specific post, it's about a branch of feminism that seems as determined to define, limit and control female sexuality just as much as any patriarchy.

What branch is that toffee? Could you link to their manifesto?

That's what I am getting at toffee. I used to not be able to understand why people like pointless hugging, now I know they do as they must have different body reactions to mine to it happening to them. People think hugging is a perfectly reasonable request, people often do it even when you haven't agreed to it!

People just think as they like it/don't like it we are all the same. I am fine with facials/anal/blow jobs anything else, I just am not, and never will be a hugger. People usually ask before the above sexual list though, but women never ask before they start hugging you. All you can do is teach your children to say no when they don't want stuff whether it be hugging or anal!

Certainly not heard about feminism policing individual women's sex lives.

I have heard it shouting loudly about not being herded silently along into men's fantasies and believing them to be our own.

Hate hugging and kissing hello.... Hate it

All you can do is teach your children to say no when they don't want stuff whether it be hugging or anal!

I agree - though I might change the wording slightly at DD's age

That's an interesting point, Toffee. Are there people questioning themselves because they like something, but they have seen that the overwhelming majority of women don't like it? Does that make them feel that something must be wrong with them in order to enjoy that practice?

Re the touching, hugging, pestering - of course no one should put up with it if they don't like it. But if that used to be what a couple did pre-kids (as an example) and now one partner is too tired or "touched out" to enjoy it - surely just an adult conversation about it does the trick? The partner who does what he always used to - initiating physical intimacy to see if their partner would like sex, say - is do nothing wrong, just as the partner who says "no thanks, I'm too tired today" is doing nothing wrong either.

They're doing nothing wrong as long as they stop when asked. The problem starts when they persist/do it repeatedly and/or sulk about it. As you say, a conversation is what's needed, as with any relationship issue.

In an ideal world, men and women would be completely area and comfortable with all the issues around consen. Men would never feel entitled, women would be never feel obliged. Women and men would be able to state clearly what they liked and didn't like sexually, would be able to say yes or no to anything with no attached psychological or societal baggage.

Sadly, we don't live in that world. we know that teenage girls are being pressured into anal sex, for example, since it has become mainstream porn. know that a lot of women have sex they don't want because they feel they should. We know that a lot of men still think "no" means "maybe".

So it seems to me to be important that if someone posts on here unsure about something sexual, that they are reminded that they have a right to say "no" to anything they don't want to do. In exactly the same way that we remind each other that housework and baby care are not just women's work.

Because they wouldn't be posting if they didn't have some sort of doubt or concern or uncertainty.

Watch out Bertrand, there'll be a thread saying you're in the mysterious sex-controlling 'branch' of feminism! Without naming or quoting you of course.

I read one of the other posts about pawing ect and took it as what I'm used to. For example I have had the flu all week and everyday when dp has got home he's started trying to initiate sex then when he realises I'm not up for it (you would think the raging temp and inability to move would be obvious) he gets all upset like I've deprived him of something he's entitled to have. Hence why I agreed with the post as he is a sex pest but looking at it from a different angle of people with partners who aren't like this then I get what you mean. I guess it depends on personal experience.

As for the other stuff I'm a real prude but maybe that's due to the good girl bad girl thing but would never say that because I don't like things no one else does. I don't like theme park rides doesn't mean everyone else has been brainwashed by the Madame Tussaud to love them it's just a case of personal taste.

So it seems to me to be important that if someone posts on here unsure about something sexual, that they are reminded that they have a right to say "no" to anything they don't want to do

Definitely. That's the inarguable basis of a decent relationship. No one should have to do anything they don't want to do.

But equally, no one should be shouted down for something they do like.

I know for a fact that some women only do certain sex acts to please men. Not all!!
I have friends who can clearly articulate how they have felt completely expected to do certain things that they wouldn't choose to do. The same women often receive very little pleasure themselves and do not see it as necessary. They feel to ashamed of their body to receive oral and think their orgasm is irrelevant. They have clearly said to me they know they have a strange relationship with sex. I think anyone should do whatever they want but when I know there are women who see sex as for the man and men who agree and perpetuate this is does make me sad.

I do wonder why anyone would like someone's semen all over their face....there's no intrinsic pleasure aside from the pleasure of pleasing surely? Unless my face has some sensory issues and there's a pleasant feeling and not an absolute evolutionary displeasure from things being thrown at ones face and therefore it has to come pardon the pun from men doesn't it? What natural flow of a sex life would lead down the come all over my face route?

This I say as an individual not representing any branch of feminism!!

Sparrow, I don't think that there is a mysterious, sex-controlling branch of feminism . I don't think that feminism is the reason why any of these opinions are held. I simply put it on this board because I was interested in a sensible conversation about it, and thought that there were significant feminist elements within it. I've never said I think that the "feminists" are "controlling sex"

Also, apologies that I haven't bookmarked every single thread I've read on MN that ever made me start to form an opinion on something to allow me to refer back to it on the off chance it ever comes up again.

It's certainly not my aim, or the aim of any of the many feminists I know, to shout women down for doing things they like, mainly because having that aim would be pointless and idiotic.

Posie, I imagine that some people would gain pleasure for something like that either yes, out of liking to see the other person have pleasure, or perhaps there is a submissive element to it?

Men who can't read body language and subtle "I'm not interested" signs are fucking exhausting. And a light touch becomes an endless "go" at sex, it's a build up that once you've had enough there's nothing you want less than sex. There's little more're off putting than a desperate man who "kindly" forcibly initiates sex.

"But equally, no one should be shouted down for something they do like."

Absolutely not. What a good thing nobody is doing that.

It is absolutely possible and likely that some women (and men) enjoy having semen on their face. The problem comes when having semen on your face is presented as an expected part of sex, such that women feel they have to do it, no matter how much they dislike it.

The branch of feminism thing was from toffee Thurlow.

I could write it with the genders reversed, slug. I do appreciate what you mean, but equally it can and does happen in the reverse. I've made a move towards my DP that has been rejected because, with the job he does, he has come home exhausted, bruised, not sexy and in some ways touched out. Perhaps he clearly wasn't in the mood. I don't know. Maybe it's a failing with our relationship that neither of us walks around with a traffic light above our head indicating whether we are too exhausted to have sex?

That was actually why I wrote that. Perhaps I should have reversed the genders. Some days after being at home with a small child I was too exhausted and touched out to contemplate having sex. Equally, another day I might have been just as exhausted and touched out, but my reaction was to want to have sex, to do something adult, to cheer myself up through having sex.

And the same thing applies to my DP - somedays he's too knackered to contemplate it and so says no when I initiate intimacy, somedays he wants to do something pleasurable at the end of a crap day.

I'm possibly not explaining this well. I suppose what I mean is that is it how does anyone know, on any day, whether one person wants sex or not, without asking or initiating it?