General Trans thread part 2

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive

So is that person also trans-ethnic? And that's okay?

Hello. Sorry to interrupt but don't want to start another thread about trans.

Reading and lurking with interest!

Basically, as someone newly interested in the problems in conflating sex with gender, and pro-trans vs feminism issues, I started talking to a relative who is very much a Leftie hippy "Oh but some men really feel they are women so just let them be" I said "But that causes problems for women born as women" he said "How exacly?"

I said "Well because transwomen want access to women-only spaces" he said "What's wrong with that?"

I stopped myself from bringing up "people with penises are more violent" because it sounded in the context of our chat a bit extreme so other than saying "but they're not women" we disagreed at that point.

I'd like to be able explain in a quick almost "soundbite" lighthearted but obviously serious way, why it is an issue. Any pointers?

It would be great to have a soundbite... But maybe "because a rapist in a frock is still a rapist?" But obvs rape,dv, etc are hard to talk about in a light hearted way.
If someone is unaware of the reality of the sex-based nature of violence (ie overwhelmingly perpetrated by males) and its role in upholding patriarchal oppression of women and girls, and is bit defensive about the prospect - you have serious work on your hands to open their mind to the case for women-only spaces.

I'd like to be able explain in a quick almost "soundbite" lighthearted but obviously serious way, why it is an issue. Any pointers?

Changing rooms and showers - women do not want to be naked in front of people with penises. Women also do not want to see strangers' penises, and we also do not want female children to see strangers' penises.
(Penises are ugly. Is that lighthearted enough?)

If he doesn't see reason then, I'm afraid you will just outright tell him that -males- people with penises rape. Don't say they're more violent, say that they rape. He may be able to find a newspaper article on a female murderer, but he will really have to search the archives for a female rapist.

Still thinking about it. I think you can tailor the thing to suit the person. Eg if they have a military background say "do you think someone who has never been in the military or in a war zone, but who genuinely self-identifies as a 'war veteran', should be allowed to access the services and support created specifically for real lived war veterans?

All great suggestions, thanks for your time.
Penises are ugly

Using metaphor like the war veteran example is, too. Also appropriating race/ethnicity.

chamelomoon - re " I started talking to a relative", well you could start with some form of ....men, people with penises, have a track record of abusing and raping women, NOT all men, of course, but lets just say the prison population stats for male and female inmates points to a vast discrepancy between men and women's behaviour in terms of violence and law breaking. And bearing in mind most rape is not reported those numbers will be even greater. yes, women can be violent and can commit crimes, sadly news is full of it at the moment (so terrible it is happening of course). But still facts are facts. And women need to know in private and vulnerable spaces like toilets and changing rooms/locker rooms in the U.S. etc that they can be safe.

Because a man feels like a woman doesn't make him a woman, any more than my feeling like a brain surgeon means anyone would op for me to be performing their brain op!

This does not mean I want trans women to be at risk so I think we do need some private space, cubicals, like disabled access toilets, that can be used by anyone.

Also, as your relative is a male he does not get to decide when women feel safe or when women are safe, he is not a woman.

Re "because it sounded in the context of our chat a bit extreme so other than saying "but they're not women" we disagreed at that point." That's the problem - stalemate, he thinks they are women, some people d not thin that. I wonder if you can ask him how far his belief in their being women really goes. E.G. I wonder, would he be happy for his mum or sister or daughter to have to undress in front of a trans woman (because they had to share a communal changing space), or for a trans woman to undress in front of said female, complete with their penis? NOT all trans women have penises but I understand that most trans women do not have the operation to alter their penis into a vagina shape.

But rather than getting too caught up in whether a trans woman is a woman, because if he won't accept they are not (the clue being in the name trans woman) then it might be better to go down the route of arguing what would keep everyone safer, and why a trans woman would want to advocate for things that might make woman and girls less safe. I understand many trans women do just want to pee, but there energy and effort going into accessing women only spaces makes me think this is also about being seen and accepted as women. Sometimes because this may be safer for them and sometimes because it validates them as 'women'.

I have the feeling that this war veteran thing will just be countered with "but war veterans are brave and glorious and claiming to be one even though that's not the case is identity fraud!"

... because women are inferior and being a woman in rape culture is a piece of cake and we should just be happy that someone wants to join our ranks, you know.

Vestal laughing my ass off!

squirrel great point!

Vestal

I'm afraid you will just outright tell him that -males- people with penises rape.
But then of course they will come back with NAMALT.

This should be male, so he will have to say: "NAPWPALT"

You cold ask your relative if he thinks this person is a woman, becaus ethis person does.... www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h#.tu0Xo9Xa

Because I do like to try and see the other side, don't flame me!!! Actually, I do worry about trans men in all this. Trans men sometimes seem to pass very effectively, they are not identified as women and so may well not be at risk from me. But if they are 'sent them to be sent back to the ladies toilet' could this be problematic as they may experience aggression from women in the women's toilet and if outed as trans men may experience aggression from men in the men's toilet.

AGAIN I feel that private cublical spaces for anyone could be an answer. Those who use these spaces would be men or women, trans men or trans women, gender non-confirming/non-binary/whatever and could include disabled people and people with young kids. Some could be bigger spaces, some smaller and some with changing units etc.

I bring up this aspect of it (trans men) this because I think trans men are vulnerable sometimes due to their sometimes slighter frame and naturally probably being shorter etc than men born men and also because they do s seem to pass very well, which could mean men born men will not give them any kind of unwanted attention. All the debate in this topic seems to react to trans women.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36058156

So anyway, this is just a musing. Because I want everyone to be safe. We may need to invest a lot more money in public toilets.

This is interesting.....

miriamafloat.wordpress.com/2016/02/06/restroom-risk-a-patriarchal-reversal/

I wrote ... " Trans men sometimes seem to pass very effectively, they are not identified as women and so may well not be at risk from me. "

I meant!!!!!!

"Trans men sometimes seem to pass very effectively, they are not identified as women and so may well not be at risk from MEN... not me!!!!!

Well "All the debate in this topic seems to react to trans women." But there are some articles that focus on trans men and I linked to two.

I would really like to know what people think of the two second links (the first about the trans woman with a beard is possibly well known here as has maybe been linked to before).

I would love to hear from a trans man on their take on all this. I feel their voices are less often heard.

OK, ready for my flaming.....

Okay if this war veteran thing will just be countered with "but war veterans are brave and glorious and claiming to be one even though that's not the case is identity fraud!" and the person in question is a 'lefty hippy'... how about...
Do you think that an active neonazi with racist tatoos and blood-stained steel toe-capped boots, who nonetheless 'identifies as' a 'lefty hippy' should be allowed to join left-wing political parties, vote, get into leadership positions, etc?

Hi ItalianGreyhound. My feeling is that Ftt 'pass' in a way because they feel as non-threatening as the females they were born and raised as, including the female tendency to have a smaller frame, etc. Mtts still have that entitled overbearing vibe of maleness about them.

Also wrt the war veteran example you can expose the complete insanity of the cultural acceptance of self-identification over factual reality. For example 'fraud'... 'What if someone really genuinely is a war veteran on the inside and they have always known that they truly are deep down because they have a feeling that confirms this, just like any other war veteran knows it, and they should be applauded for their courage and bravery, and seen as an inspiration for being their true, authentic self in outwardly expressing and exploring this identity (which hitherto was only an internal feeling) by accessing services and support for war veterans'

SquirrelStandoff re "My feeling is that Ftt 'pass' in a way because they feel as non-threatening as the females they were born and raised as, including the female tendency to have a smaller frame, etc." I meant pass as in look male? Do you mean something else, as in not present a threat?

Re Mtts still have that entitled overbearing vibe of maleness about them. yes indeed, but that is not referring to trans men. I am wondering about safety for trans men.

I suppose with transmen (not that I have known many) they may look male with facial hair etc which passes at the time of being with them, but as you walk away, you can't shake the feeling you have just been talking to a woman. Because this feeling isn't threatening, you shrug and carry on with your business. Do you know what I mean? Transwomen on the other hand have an overbearing/entitled vibe at the time you are interacting so the sense of them being male is more forceful.
I imagine a transman to be fairly inconspicuous and to have a similar risk of attack in mens loos to a short, slightly built, mild-mannered, non-threatening male.

Squirrel re "I imagine a transman to be fairly inconspicuous and to have a similar risk of attack in mens loos to a short, slightly built, mild-mannered, non-threatening male." well, yes, unless they are outed as a trans man then the risk may increase. I am not saying this is a reason to put women at risk in women's toilets, I just mean it is something I am thinking about.

I have not knowingly met a trans man in real life. They do not seem to be as vocal anywhere I read/go etc.

unless they are outed as a trans man then the risk may increase.

That's possible, but I imagine they are more likely to be pitied as 'failed' men if outed and at greater risk if they are thought to be men but behave like women (by being friendly/chatting to strangers) in the toilets so they are assumed to be cottaging.

Just asked dh about it. He said that a transman at the urinals would on an animal level make him think "corr... a woman in here" and on another feel sorry about all the barriers she would be facing in life. In his opinion she would be vulnerable to opportunist rapists.

According to statistics, trans men do a good job of being just as violent as born men. (While transwomen are also as violent as other males.)

So, the whole hype leads to an overall increase in aggressive behaviour.

However, maybe those statistics aren't accurate anymore, as more and more butch lesbians feel forced to transition. If the first generation of transmen were female chauvinist pigs, then the numbers might have changed.

Women certainly don't make as big a deal out of transitioning as males do - the two prominent transmen I know about are artists, and the only reason I even know is because the author changed her name and the loss of the singer's beautiful female voice was mourned by her fans.

While all prominent transwomen ... I know them only for being transwomen. That's where all the media attention comes from.

VestalVirgin re "According to statistics, trans men do a good job of being just as violent as born men. (While transwomen are also as violent as other males.)" That is very interesting can you link to any articles on that please. I did wonder if Testosterone might have an affect on females of making them more violent.

This is very interesting... www.darionardi.com/BulletinArt9.html

"In men, testosterone rises and falls in response to winning or losing one’s place in the social order, such as losing a game or gaining a promotion. It is higher for men in high-powered leadership positions. Particularly in early childhood, boys prefer focusing their attention on toys and other objects that can move and that they can move around."

and

"In women, testosterone is higher in careerists compared to at-home mothers, and women's visual test scores increase when given testosterone."

I wonder if the body makes more testosterone if one is in one of these jobs, or, maybe more likely, one goes for these types of jobs if one has more testosterone?

Any one Know?

and also "Vasopressin Vasopressin is made in the brain. Both men and women make it. However, the male hormone testosterone synergizes with vasopressin – the two greatly enhance each other. A woman and man might have equal levels of vasopressin but the man experiences stronger effects. Physically, vasopressin causes water retention and high blood pressure; high levels may increase forehead size. Personality wise, vasopressin influences male social and sexual behavior, public communication, and paternal behavior. In animals (mammals), it promotes aggression, territorial competition and dominance with other males. It bonds males to mates and children. For men, it also promotes partner recognition, sexual arousal, courtship behavior, monogamy, pair bonding and mate guarding. Vasopressin also improves cognitive ability by enhancing memory. It allows one to feel separate, with dampened emotional responses and more “sensible” or “reasonable” behavior. Depressed people also have higher vasopressin. "

So I do wonder if women who take Testosterone (T) also experience the heightened Vasopressin Vasopressin, complete with 'aggression, territorial competition and dominance with other males' (along with other more appealing things like "...bonds males to mates and children. For men, it also promotes partner recognition, sexual arousal, courtship behavior, monogamy, pair bonding and mate guarding..."