General Trans thread part 2

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive

I get what you're trying to do with this pw, pd stuff, but I think this type of obfuscation is partly why we're in this situation in the first place. We shouldn't let the term "woman" be appropriated. Trans women are biological men who identify as women. Nothing more, nothing less. It must be awful not to have your body and psychology match but there's very little anyone can do about it. I am quite happy to accept them as a third gender (and trans men as a fourth). And greater education and openness about it. But I dont believe anyone can change their sex. And I think it's a harmful ideology on a number of levels.

Thanks for starting a new thread.

You're welcome

Nothing to add at the moment, save to echo the feelings of anger expressed by other posters. This is bloody serious and I feel we have all been wilfully misled, lied to and stitched up.

Yep, that's how I feel about it at the moment. I am very concerned that soon anyone will be able to pick their gender (which, btw, you can, seeing as it is a social construct...) and that will replace all mention of sex. Once this is done, men will be able to infiltrate women's spaces with no question. This seems to becoming a very real possibility and it frightens me. Of course, my female feelings are irrelevant anyway, but still...

Note how there don't seem to be any stories, or none that I can find, about trans men demanding access to male prisons, golf courses, gentlemen's clubs...

I have now decided that when filling out forms I will refuse to identify myself as female if the word used for the choice is gender and not sex. As a little experiment I'm considering using male if it's insisted upon that an option is chosen. I already choose Mr if Ms isn't an option. I do not identify as a man, but I've done this for years to make a small point.

I decided on the school run this morning, that once I am done with my PhD upgrade, I am going to write to my MP, setting out the very real implications of all this. I can't not do anything about this, and writing to my MP is the only thing I can think of doing! May well post in Feminism Chat for input and review, if that's OK.

Great idea. Did anyone get any response re the review of trans people in prisons from the thread in feminist activism?

I would love someone to produce a standard letter
I want to contact my MP
Self identification is barking. There is no way to tell who wants to access women's spaces for perverted reasons or their own kicks
I don't want to share my space with a male bodied person if I am in a vulnerable state regardless of their motives

I'll have a bash, as soon as I get this sodding upgrade report finished.

It needs to be concise and evidence-based. Referencing specific examples of harm caused, whether that be Lila Perry in the USA, the recent NY legislation as referred to on another thread here, or personal attacks, e.g. on lesbians for not wanting to have sex with transwomen's penises. I think it is important to disentangle it from LGB issues. I think this may be particularly important with my MP, who is Mike Freer, who is openly gay and married (and who generally seems like a not unreasonable bloke).

I get what you're trying to do with this pw, pd stuff, but I think this type of obfuscation is partly why we're in this situation in the first place

Totally agree with this
We need to set the bar higher, for the starting point of the discussion
Its ludicrous to have to debate the validity of biology and definition of male and female, before we can get on to what we are trying to address

A persons gender identity and/or body dysmorphia (and any trauma and stress related to that)s totally irrelevant to what biological sex they are. Segregation and women's provisions have always been done according to biological sex, for valid logical and practical reazso ns

It is not possible to segregate according to gender, as it is non binary and made-up. Plus, it would serve no practical purpose and is totally illogical

Segregation and women's provisions have always been done according to biological sex, for valid logical and practical reasons

I wrote to my MP expressing exactly this sentiment about 6 weeks ago and have had no reply. Perhaps because I also asked "if prisons, hospital wards etc are not segregated on the grounds of biological sex, then why are they segregated at all?"

The NHS has just worked back to single sex wards, hasn't it, due to popular demand. Sad to think that is likely to be overturned due to a small minority.

What is terf?

TERF = trans-exclusionary radical feminism. In transactivist (and other circles) it is synonymous with being a transphobic bigot.

Melinda its the crux of the problem for trans-allies because they are hard of thinking

But from a feminist point of view; no. We just want biological males to be kept out of biological female spaces, don't we.

I refuse, anymore to be drawn into discussions where people are unable/unwilling to differentiate correctly sex and gender.

I'm uninterested in gender; it is made up bollocks IMO. I know some people 'experience it' but so what. Its irrelevant to everyone apart from that individual (maybe their friends and family)....it has no bearing on anything.

I'm not interested in TG issues. It has no bearing on my life and it bores me.

I'm only interested in the protection and provisioning for biological women

I have received no response to my email about the terms of reference for the review. I would also like to have some input into the review of the prison issue in particular (women prisoners being particularly vulnerable). I would also like to write a general letter to my MP on the wider question of legal sex change by 'self-declaration'. It would be good to organise a letter writing campaign I think.

Surely since 'gender isn't binary' we will need an infinite amount of prisons; pangender, agender, bobgender, fredgender. Or will the default be one prison for manly men and one prison for 'not men'?

I think any letters to MPs should refer to this:

"The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this."

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19532.pdf

Haha Mrs, wasn't it you that posted that excellent meme?!

'If gender isn't binary, then trans makes no sense'

Boom!

It wasn't me although I shall be stealing it and using it with impunity bwahahaha.

Thanks. Guess I'm a terf then. I'm not a bigot. I respect the rights of anyone to dress how they like, feel how they feel and live life however they feel most comfortable so long as they aren't hurting anyone else.
Gender stereotyping seems to be getting worse and worse and affecting kids from a younger age than years ago. Trans people just seem to have fallen for it. Why can't you just be a man that's more comfortable in a dress?
I wonder if I was a 10 year old 'tomboy' now rather than 20 years ago I would be thinking I'm actually trans? Hope that makes sense not feeling very articulate today.

Did anyone else read this today? I had to read it twice because I thought it was a joke. i believe the author is a regular trans commentstor. The topic is Jaden smith being hired as the face of Louis Vuitton womenswear.

^There’s a reason why men wear men’s clothes and women wear women’s clothes, and why they are generally so different. OK, I know women have been wearing trousers for decades but they’re usually a femme version of the male equivalent - and I’m not talking about unisex clothes like jeans and t-shirts.

I’m talking about basic clothes norms that depict which gender is wearing them, even in the modern world. Stereotypically, men wear trousers and women wear dresses and skirts. That’s the ‘norm’ and it’s more than that – it’s a uniform.

When you get out of bed in the morning the most important thing you have to do all day is tell the world what your gender is, because from that, everything else flows. You may think that your job is to be an office supervisor or a stockbroker or police officer but these are all human constructs. Deep down your real job is to reproduce, and showing other humans your gender is the first step on that path.^

The most important thing I have to do is declare my gender? Fuck off with that.

Sorry, italics fail. Here's the link.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/will-smiths-son-as-the-new-face-of-louis-vuitton-womenswear-might-seem-progressive-but-its-a6797461.html

There's already a thread on it, Imustgodown. . I think a lot of people thought it was a joke.

Just read an article saying sex is a social construct. How? Seems there are lots of people trying to muddy the waters around this issue.