Can we have a general Trans thread?

[Brugmansia]

Sorry for another trans thread and I feel this is a bit of an imposition given I don't post really.

Anyway reading FWR over the past few months has re-radicalised me. I've been reading lots here and wider.

Anyway just now been watching TV and there's been some stuff that's given me the rage but didn't seem to fit in existing threads or it's own thread.

Anyway thing that gave me the rage.
On BBC3 program on transgemder teen's the doctor just said "creating a vagina". Are doctors redefining vagina as pocket rather than a passage? Makes me want to screem.

Also Sarah Ditum being no platformed.

Haven't there been calls for a new gender recognition law in the UK, like there is in Ireland? How exactly does the Irish law work? Do you merely have to state "I'm a woman" to be accepted as one? So no having to live as a woman (whatever that may be) for a certain amount of time before being recognised as one?

Do you think this would ever be prosecuted the other way round? Would a man bring charges against a trans woman who didn't disclose she was male?

Well, no, I suspect the transwoman might end up having to bring charges against the man for being beaten up.

In 2013 there had only been 4 such prosecutions and they were all of transmen, or 'women pretending to be men'

I found quite a thoughtful article about the issues, and in the comments a transwoman was had a go at the author for ignoring transmisogny and erasing transwomen's experience as rape victims. In a piece about transmen. So I suspect there will be no backlash because it's not all about transwomen.

Link here:

stavvers.wordpress.com/2013/06/28/we-need-to-talk-about-rape-deception-and-trans-people/

I thought that the trans man hadn't transitioned at the time the crime took place? It was a good few years ago wasn't it?

Oh god that article is by stavvers, she's the queen of 'gender is innate and sex is socially constructed' 'it's fetishistic to be turned on by genitals' trans allies. I will read it in a bit though

They are legislating away the possibility of a group of people–already more vulnerable to rape–to be raped

Trans people are more vulnerable to rape than women? Not sure about that

I didn't really get what she was on about tbh
I don't believe there is legislation in place that specifies that a rape victim can only be a biological female, so I don't understand the point she makes above
Rape by defection is still rape. If anyone has sex with anyone under conditions that they wouldn't have consented to had they known the truth (whether that be biological sex, HIV status or anything else) it is still non consensual sex (rape)
It's just interesting that no prosecution had been brought by men against trans women. I think te treatment of kyran is pure misogyny. He doesn't get to self identify because he's 'really a woman' but Tara Hudson is also a woman.
Basically, woman = not-man. Misogyny.

Isn't the issue that rape can only be committed by someone with a penis? Anything not involving a penis (like an object) is sexual assault? So a transman who hasn't surgically transitioned wouldn't be able to be convicted of rape?

He could be convicted of 'assault by penetration'. If the victim believed they were going to be penetrated by a penis then that is the act they have consented to, not penetration by a dildo.
I think some transpeople are trying to push the agenda that sex with a transwoman/man is exactly the same thing as having sex with a biological woman/man. It isn't , and thankfully the law upholds that.
In the transgender world/bubble a transgendered person is identical to a 'cis' person of the same gender (sorry to use the cis word, but I can't think of any other word). Of course that isn't true of most people in the real world, and certainly not when it comes down to sexual attraction.

Sorry I'm not reading anything by Stavvers.

It seems that Transwomen are women (thereby eroding women's rights to sex segregated space) and trans men are men when it's also eroding women's rights (re writing maternity literature to refer to "birthing persons" and "pregnant individuals" for example) but when women who identify as men are taking up sexual opportunities that would otherwise have gone to born men, then they are dangerous, deluded women, and no trans allies will issue death threats and heap abuse on newspaper editors.

Have I got it right?

I think it was this thread that I mentioned seeing a guest on JK talk of how her boyfriend was actually a woman, she only found out when the police notified her as her boyfriend had duped women before and there were several charges against him, the trans man was charged with sex by fraud ( or deception I can't remember), I'll have to find post to see what the sentence was, but I remember it shocked me, as from what I knew, trans people don't have to disclose their birth sex, and I've seen documentries where surgeons tell their patients to say they've been in an accident to explain why their neovagina is higher up etc.

Felt really bad for the woman speaking, she's been trolled online since and people say she prob doesn't know if her dc are a boy or a girl.

I also notice the difference in reporting and language between a sexual assault/rape of a woman by a man and the assault committed by a trans man, it's like the woman's story is totally accepted because the person committing the crime is viewed as female regardless of how she identifies, where as when it's a born male, holes are picked in her story, word alleged is bandied about, and the woman's personal life often mentioned.

TH didn't have her private life in papers, a woman would have had her sex work job splashed everywhere, if a woman head butted a man and knocked his teeth out, it would def be mentioned, and her list of crimes wouldn't be hushed up like TH.

It's just one double standard after another, and it seems to all boil down to, if your born male your self identity will be taken seriously, respected, and must be accommodated, but if your born female, your self identity means fuck all.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3363751/Transgender-woman-injected-bleach-testicles-tried-cut-scrotum-denied-hormone-therapy-male-prison.html

Cat Smith, shadow Minister for Women brought this case to debated.

Or the prisoners local MP to give her another title

Isn't the issue that rape can only be committed by someone with a penis? Anything not involving a penis (like an object) is sexual assault? So a transman who hasn't surgically transitioned wouldn't be able to be convicted of rape?

Some definition might also involve a vagina as required anatomy.

I am of the opinion that penis-in-vagina rape ought to be punished extra severely, as it usually puts the victim of risk of pregnancy. The pain of childbirth is such that this should be considered attempted torture. Forced pregnancy is a crime that a transman cannot commit, and that a transwoman cannot be victim of.

Of course, all kinds of rape ought to be punished more severely (and persecuted more thoroughly) than they are at the moment.

howto. There are so many other issues raised by that article, aren't there?

I mean, where the fuck did a prisoner get access to bleach, syringes and something sharp enough to try and cut their scrotum off?

That sounds like extreme self harm to me. - surely more relevant to debate as part of the issue of mental health, and self harm in prisons rather than "should men be inprisoned with women?". The gender stuff seems a total red herring.

If the clinical assessment is that someone would benefit from hormones, that's fine with me. Give them hormones, in the prison of their sex.

Why are vulnerable prisoners not taken care of adequately, why are the prisons trumping pre arranged medical care too, as you say so many questions?

That's it exactly Hermione

With regard to the breastfeed article I do find it astonishing that we are expected to make room and suspend our disbelief for both MtT and FtT. Where are men being asked to do this?

The only instance I have heard of a trans person trying to access a male-only space was Caitlyn Jenner's golf club, and CJ signed in as Bruce!

But when it comes to women's spaces, which are there for an actual reason, and women's biology, we have to play along with 'trans women are women' and also 'the term mother itself is problematic'

I mean, where the fuck did a prisoner get access to bleach, syringes and something sharp enough to try and cut their scrotum off?

That's what I thought too. It sounds like this prisoner should have been assessed as vulnerable and not allowed to be in a place with access to potentially harmful objects.

A conspiracy theorist could assume that the prisoner was intentionally given access to those things, so that he could harm himself, and women could then be blamed for not wanting males in women's prisons.

I am of the opinion that penis-in-vagina rape ought to be punished extra severely, as it usually puts the victim of risk of pregnancy.

But would we then have men getting shorter sentences for raping a woman if they wear a condom, have a vasectomy, are infertile, or if their victim is on contraceptives, are infertile or have had hysterectomies?

So in theory ones woman rapist would get 10 years, and another woman's rapist only five because he is infertile or he used a condom. If the risk of pregnancy isn't there then he won't be punished as severely.

Agree that women face different issues and risks after being raped than a male does, was just thinking how it could work the other way, where a rapist is kind of rewarded for not having the pregnancy risk.