Just a bit of a question not a judgement about the boards

[FallenThroughTheRabitHole]

I tend to go between various topics to see what others are saying. If I'm being honest the large part of my time here is spent in either Chat, AIBU or Relationships. I know those topics aren't a representation of MNet as a whole but you go where you go nonetheless.
I was just wondering if anyone had come across responses to various threads in which they thought "What on earth!?"

On the relationships board I've often found the 'Tell it like it is' clan, who often, if not always, have nothing better to offer than variations of 'LTB' are rife and are never actually helpful in way of advice or support.

Chat is normally relaxed... and AIBU is usually set up for a flaming of sorts. This is the internet after all so no-one should be losing sleep but I've always wondered how this would appear from a feminist perspective - The advice we are offering each other here.

I'm not complaining about these boards as I've often found a lot of supportive advice but one comment that hit me was someone saying that they couldn't believe the amount of ingrained misogyny on various threads.

I agree.

I do also think there is a stereotype, much wider than MN, that all feminists are running a closed shop, and are paranoid/humourless/petty/irrational.

These are old ideas that have been around for generations. It's not surprising people come to MN FWR with those ideas in their minds.

I agree, though, that MN as a whole is hugely feminist.

I think it happens because it is political and deeply personal.

I certainly went through a phase of denial about feminism. It was too difficult to look at my life and analyse it that way. It was easier to say that I lived my life exactly the way I wanted it and no harm was being done to me by living in such a sexist society and if I could avoid it, why couldnt all other women ?

To hear a feminist perspective is difficult - it feels like an attack and it's easier to deflect than to consider whether there is any truth to it. Add in that women new to feminism can be very angry, confused and feel disempowered. It takes a long time to get passed that but the problem is that once you see the inequality, you start to see the harm and then you start to see how you contribute to it. So as a feminist the only way forward is to start to speak out.

And then you have the fact that women still aren't allowed to speak out. There is real hatred in some sections of society to women and they do not want us to speak up. We all internalise that.

It's a potent mix.

I think it's a shame if MN reinforces the idea that feminists are petty, personal and anti-intellectual.

Do you think it does, didyou?

I mean, obviously, feminism is personal - 'the personal is political' is a fairly well-known feminist saying.

But I'm not clear on the other two. Only on this thread, someone else has claimed that this thread is about 'academic' feminism (not that LTB seems very academic to me).

Surely you can see that this thread is the very embodiment of the petty, personal and anti-intellectual?

If things had worked out differently, and we had actually discussed the nature of support and online communication from a feminist perspective, it is very likely someone would have turned up to complain that regulars on FWR and the OP were talking theoretical wank.

Well, I think that's rude to the OP, but yes, TBH, I agree with you.

Doesn't really follow that FWR is.

Personal, petty and anti-intellectual ?

I dunno but then again I'm siting here trying to make Frozen bunting to pin up on my (pink) bell tent tomorrow so what do I know ?

almond - well, at least theoretical wank is less messy than practical wank.

(I'm sorry. I'm very childish.)

The thing is, if you would allow other women to use this space, there would be much more rational discussion. There are loads of very clever women on MN who are capable of discussion without indulging in theoretical wank.

True. I myself am quite brilliant, and shit at theoretical wank.

Let's join together and smash the system, sister.

Almond, it is possible to discuss the nature of support and online communication from a feminist perspective without engaging in theoretical wank. It means refraining from showing off, but it is possible.

I wonder if you mean that, Jeanne?

I would argue that women do indeed need to join together if they want to oppose patriarchy in any effective way. But I'm not sure if you were being ironic?

Which bit?

I am truly shit at theoretical stuff. I'm learning, though, and (I hope) learning not to do the wanky side of it.

I have four major points of disagreement with the 'regulars.' The disagreement of these either involves me going into theoretical wank, or instigates wank from others, or both.

I am incapable of not wanking or instigating it. I would have to pretend to agree or leave. And selfishly, I don't want to.

On a separate point, the Frozen makeup compact is called Snow White Pride Up! (their exclamation mark, not mine). I found that a dubious title, but did not want to bring it up on the relevant Style and Beauty thread, as it did seem a bit of a wanky language point.

I didn't come to FWR with those views. To be honest I've got to age 56 having accumulated a husband, son and a very successful career and have barely thought about feminism. I can't recall ever discussing it with my friends.

There is an air of closed shop about this forum. I suppose if I wanted to call myself a feminist I'd be what is apparently a "liberal feminist " or even worse an "equalist"; which coupled with political views which are Blairite/moderate Conservative frequently leave me outside the shop.

I know I have considerable privilege being born middle-class, white and clever and being encouraged by family and teachers to take advantage of every opportunity. I don't recall ever being told I couldn't do what I wanted because I was a girl.

I was told on here once that every man has more privilege than me. I don't agree with that.

There are threads which are interesting and occasionally illuminating. There are others which I think it must be exhausting spending your whole day trying to find oppression in everything.

Ah, cross post.

No. That's not irony. You're thinking of sarcasm, or possibly, the rudeness that comes as a response to snide little digs by someone who thinks she's being terribly clever.

HTH.

Who is not "allowing other women to use this space"?

almond - is it derailing/boring to ask what those four are?

I had a vague feeling of agreeing with you mostly, but if we truly are the Borg, I suppose I should know if we disagree (if I even count as a regular these days, which I may not).

There are others which I think it must be exhausting spending your whole day trying to find oppression in everything.

Yeah, but lass, I wonder if it's that, or if people just think these things then post?

Um, I don't agree with the concept of 'male privilege' or indeed any of the social justice type privilege ideas.

I disagree with a lot of the postmodernist stuff.

I don't think it is possible to abolish gender.

I don't think men and women are that similar because the consequences of pregnancy are massive (I don't mean their brains are different).

I'm aware there isn't a hive mind and all the regulars think different things, so some agree with me on some things but not others. I think that is true for all of us.

Theory is important, not wankery.

It enables us to make sense of the world around us and gives us the means of changing it and an idea of what we want to change it to.

I agree that the practical application is more important but I happen to think that all women have a role to play in the theory and the practise.

I don't know why it gets conflated with showing off.

I was told on here once that every man has more privilege than me. I don't agree with that.

Having grown up white in the segregated US South, I don't agree with that either. There was a very good thread that explored some aspects of this in FWR, not too long ago.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2316090-Feminism-for-women-of-colour

That's interesting, thanks.

(I know you think it isn't a hive mind! I was joking - badly.)

I wonder if it is possible to abolish gender. I guess for me, it's an important idea, to imagine a world without gender and then think from there. But you're right, it might never be possible.

I agree with you - we all have points where we disagree. I'm just curious because I do sometimes read all the posts about us being a Borg, or having an 'orthodoxy', and I wonder guiltily if it's true, because when I try to think of regulars I disagree with, few people come to mind.

But, clearly, we do disagree. And I don't remember how we disagree because it has never (for me anyway) got in the way of a good discussion.