Feminism for women of colour...

[AnotherEpisode]

As a black woman, I quite often feel sidelined within feminism.

I don't feel feminism addresses the difficulties faced by women of colour in western societies and quite often I feel I am drawn to race issues over feminist issues because of this.

I absolutely have more difficulties in this society because of the colour of my skin than I do because of my sex.

I feel that the lack of understanding towards racism amongst feminist circles gives me a stance of one over the other in which racism usually wins, which is unfortunate really!

This article, although written in a strong, comical and sometimes rude tone, gives a good insight!

thegrio.com/2015/02/23/patricia-arquette-blacks-gays-white-women/

Not sure why I'm posting but I'm interested in a wider perspective especially people's thoughts on the article!

Sorry cant do clickable link on mobile!

Clickable link

I'll read it now :)

Thank you!!!!!

Eewww that is cringeworthy! I am a privileged white woman and she wasn't speaking for me. It's all about the kyriarchy (I think I learnt that word on MN) - intersectionality - for me. That notion that another woman should somehow sideline her race to focus on feminism is abhorrent.

I try to check my privilege before opening my gob, but I'm not in any RL feminist groups so I guess I don't talk in depth about this often.

*That I should ask another woman to somehow sideline her race

I have no time for most white feminists because the base line assumptions that inform their arguments assume that I am not part of the conversation as a black woman. I can turn up and hold a placard but my concerns and needs are a "distraction" from the main cause.

Patricia Arquette at the Oscars is a case in point. I am not mad or bitter about this. I can choose how I react and I just keep doing what I am doing and do not worry about the latest cause for feminists.

I think what I mean is that for many feminists who complain about the treatment of women they assume that woman is white.

In the workplace
Men assume white women are not as committed to the work force, perhaps don't want the promotion or will struggle to lead.
In the work place it is assumed I am the cleaner or my intellect is deficient until proven

So when Patricia complains about equal pay she is talking about the women at the table. There are plenty who next even got invited.

It's like the complaint about how difficult it is for sahm to return to work. I frankly find it hilarious because I would never dare leave in the first place despite being a very well paid professional with multiple degrees. I would never risk having my credibility doubted further. Because I know a bit of voluntary work etc for a white woman and a black woman are not the same.

In the US, white women are the group least likely to be SAHMs. The proportion of African American who are SAHMs has risen by 50% since 2000.

I don't know what the figures are by ethnicity in the UK for SAHMs, but 60% of SAHMs stay at home because they cannot afford childcare. Over 75% of British Bangladeshi women have children by the age of 30, compared to about 35% of white women. It is often younger mothers who cannot afford childcare. I certainly hear a lot of judging of Pakistani and Bangladeshi heritage female students for planning to have children prior to establishing a career, and consider SAHMs entering the workforce to be a major issue of both gender and ethnicity where I live.

With regard to the assumption that a WOC is a cleaner. All the cleaners that I saw where I used to work were of Asian heritage. At diversity training the trainer said that a quarter of them had an undergraduate degree or higher. That was for a local authority.

Arquette's speech seems absurd. Neither POC nor gay and lesbian people have won full human rights in the US.

Almond you are talking at cross purposes to me (I think)

I am not suggesting that sahm are wealthy or that is a white choice. I was making a comment on the mn suggestion to sahm that are considering returning to work that if you do a bit of volunteering or some courses on the side you should be able to return to work. The assumption is employers view you objectively. I don't think they do. I don't have a photo on Linkedin. Recruiters before they met me always suggested I put one up. After meeting me they agreed my profile was perfect without a photo (FYI I have a very non ethnic name). I am not blaming the recruiters it is just a subtle example of the differences that I work with on a daily basis that inform my choices. As for the non white and poor sahm I feel sorry for them because if they were thinking of returning to work they will have a lot to prove to get a foot in the door. Which is why I am grateful that my mother and aunts explicitly told me some choices are not for me and if I take up those choices it will bite me in the arse hard.

Cleaners vary depending on where you work. At my first job all Asian. Second place Colombia and Ecuador and at my current all black.

My point is that the prejudice I face is not the same as a white woman. As a result the choices I make will therefore be different. I am planning on just one child although I would prefer more because if I stop work because as you point out childcare is bloody expensive I don't think I can get back in.

Yes, I think that is true. Volunteering is particularly a case of will your face fit. Even getting a volunteering opportunity is a matter of who you know. There is also an issue of Black women in particular not being given as many opportunities of flexible and part time working as white women.

This discusses flexible working by ethnicity, although it is from 2007:

www.cls.ioe.ac.uk/shared/get-file.ashx?id=831&itemtype=document

But back to the point equal pay is wonderful and I am all for that. But if the people handing out the jobs make assumptions about your intellect based on your skin colour equal pay is the least of your issues.

Feminism doesn't like talking about woc and their issues because it is awkward and frankly they don't want to. And in return I ignore it mostly.
But if I have a daughter I will tell her what my mother told me. You have to be twice as good. You must always work because you will be judged twice as harshly if you don't. Choose a profession where people need you so medicine or finance or law avoid the arts. Finding yourself, smoking a bit of pot or shop lifting are experiments for white people. Never do anything overtly sexy in public you will be held to a higher standard than your peers.

It sounds depressing and restrictive but it's not. Myself and my cousins followed the "rules" and we are all doing okay. We went out and partied and drank and travelled but we knew our boundaries were slightly different.

That notion that another woman should somehow sideline her race to focus on feminism is abhorrent.

I think the notion that a woman should sideline her sex to focus on something else is equally abhorrent.

Where I grew up, class and religion were very significant aspects of oppression and discrimination that affected very large numbers of people. Men frequently told women they should fight the class and religious battles and all women's problems would be fine after that. There were no black people, a tiny number of Asians and most LGB people were in the closet.

How would you expect working class or middle class women in those communities to address feminism in a way that includes black women? Genuine question, not trying to be goady.

It depends on what approach people are taking to equal pay. Many women in the US, particularly WOC, are in jobs in the food industry where the pay and guarantee of economic rights is very poor. If equal pay means that there is to be an assessment of the value of that job compared to others leading to a pay increase, that is going to lift a lot of female headed households out of poverty.

So if we are talking about women as a group being paid the same per hour as men as a group, the focus should be on increasing the wages of the poorest women.

But this does nothing to resolve the problem of women in general and WOC in particular being hugely under represented in certain professions. This isn't just a question of being highly paid but also of getting a chance to shape and influence society. The art world, for example, does not pay well, but WOC struggle to get representation.

OP, I cross posted with you about the arts!

I think the message about equal pay for women is relevant regardless of race.
Women always tend to be at the lower scale regardless.

Race is another compounding factor, yes. But it's still interesting that the US has chosen a black male president over a while female candidate (although it could be argued that it was an issue with the candidate herself).
But, while nobody doubts Obama intellect (it would always compare favourably to W, anyway), the wives are constantly analysed over their hair, make up, dresses and other decorative aspects. When Clinton first got elected Hillary was criticised for having political opinions.

So, I'd rather fight for equality of opportunities and pay for everyone, but it needs to be recognised that women (from all colours) do tend to be dealt a more difficult hand.

Flora, doesn't it depend on what we're talking about? There are different issues in local areas, in feminism in the media, in how feminist organisations are run, and in what issues national organisations focus on.

Just read her statement to the press. I get what you are saying.

Well I think honesty in feminism would be nice and listening.
It usually takes a twitter revolt beyond feminism will listen to woc. The whole solidarity is for white women hash tag was a case in point.

But an example for me would have been the sexualisation of girls. An interesting conversation would have been to say the treatment of non white girls. Black girls are aggressive, hyper sexual (ie hyper sexual rhianna but miley is experimenting) and not feminine as a rule. Mixed races girls are exotic, girls from the Indian sub continent oppressed etc

But in terms of helping sometimes I think it is useful to show the outcomes of choices. Ie if you sah for 5 years as a white woman your earning power is depressed by x% and so on so people make informed choices. Tbh I don't know what the answer is but if someone comes up with a suggestion I think the default should be to listen

Flora, it also depends on circumstances. If a woman's situation is so dire that she is barely getting through the day she is not going to have much time for issues outside of her own experience.

But in the case of older working class women in my family, who were politically active in white working class locations, having a commitment and involvement in fighting for the rights of WOC elsewhere both informs and strengthens their commitment to what they do in their own communities. There is huge value in solidarity among women across regions and across the world.

I think the we are all in the same battle together is true but in some ways unhelpful.

I think dv is a situation which is terrifying but can be very difficult to cope depending on what type ( i mean class, race and religion) of woman you are.

Equally I find I am enraged by things that although is not feminism but I would call their fellow travellers make a statement that implies woc ought to be held to different standards . My pet hate is that working class or black/Asian people inherently struggle to engage with education or general norms of society and if they do something bloody outrageous or awful some hand wringer pops up with some cultural relativist bs. I just feel that only middle class white women get to be 3 dimensional characters good, bad or funny everyone else is the representative of their race or class.

Even when the intention is good it makes it that little bit harder to prove that we are just the same as everyone else. I think anything that promotes independence and real informed choice is a good thing. So be that education, refuge centres , a real conversation about media representation of all women and girls, lgbt rights.

Another thing ( I am feeling chatty tonight) unlike op I don't feel drawn to anti racism causes since in the black community 9 tines of 10 it's about how to support black men irrespective of what that same community of men might be doing to "its" women. So I am happy to take a pass on that one too.

I have found one of the best ways for me personally to engage with feminism again was joining a lean in circle. I am London based and it was mixed group of professional women having a conversation and it was great. We have found ways of helping each other in spite of our outward differences. I think online feminism can be a bit of an echo box but I think that is a problem for a lot of online groupings. I think flora mentioned working class women in her life working with woc and others. I think that is only achievable when it is on a personal level, which in bigger cities is the case in poorer areas seem outwardly more mixed. Wealthier areas perhaps less so.