I thought I was a feminist until someone showed me this forum.

[debucnik]

As in the title I was brought up to believe that feminism is about equality and choice but having recently been introduced to this forum it would appear that that is not the case. The forum gives the impression that feminism is not a choice but compliance to a set of rules.

When did feminism change to fight anyone who doesn't conform to what feminists want, instead of embracing the fact that women are equal with men and its our choice to do what we want?

OP - you've done it now. You've split the feminist movement right down the middle. Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold, and mankind can breath again, safe in the knowledge that the matriarchy, the evil tyranny of shouty women, has been averted at the last moment.

swan.

• I agree with all 7 of Hak's points, precisely.

• Strident means squeaky. It was first used as a put-down regarding a feminist demo. The fact that people now think it means shouty improves nothing.

• There is group-think of a sort in this forum. There's a loose, informal group of very well-informed, intelligent posters who give a great deal of thought to gender politics. It's quite a feminist powerhouse, and imo a massive privilege to have access to them for free.

Somebody coming along to say we've already got equality, nothing needs doing, being a stripper empowers women's rights or pink is the only colour for girls, will be questioned. Obviously because opinions like that run counter to what the vast majority of feminists believe. If such posters can argue for their position in a credible way, a lively discussion ensues and at least one person might change their mind about something.

If the challenger cannot accept that different people are allowed to have different views, that one woman's experience doesn't reflect all women's experiences, or that anyone is allowed to say she's talking bollocks, then she might stomp off and start another thread about what bullies The Feminists are.

However, she's likely to find she doesn't much enjoy MN as a whole tbh. This is an unusual website in that it features a high proportion of articulate female contributors with sufficient mutual respect to argue robustly. Girls who like girls to coo gently at one another rarely stick around here. Coz we is vipers, innit

"There's a loose, informal group of very well-informed, intelligent posters who give a great deal of thought to gender politics. It's quite a feminist powerhouse, and imo a massive privilege to have access to them for free."

Absolutely agree.

Really saddened by the way that MNHQ have handled these last few posts too.

Much better Buffy thank you.

It also really helped me reading women being loud/strident/etc here, because IRL women are expected to be such peacemakers and if you've experienced violence you need to allow yourself to shout 'that was WRONG' in your head. Reading women being assertive helped me do that.

Basically I think FWR rocks although I don't post too often.

if you've experienced violence you need to allow yourself to shout 'that was WRONG' in your head. Reading women being assertive helped me do that.

That was lovely :) :)

I don't post much in FWR but I lurk and read a lot. I've learned loads and even if I don't agree with everything I read, it's massively expanded my feminist horizons. I'd like to thank those regulars like Buffy, Flora, Basil, Jeanne and many, many other lovely women who generously give their time to support and help others.

Yes, it's challenging at times, but never actively unpleasant (unless I've missed all those threads somehow). I do wonder if some posters find it too challenging and then characterise their discomfort as other people being 'rude' , either because that's easier than having to think about it, or possibly they're just not used to being disagreed with.

Whatever. I do know in the 10 years I've been MNing that I could have c&p-ed the above response many times over to these semi-annual pile on threads and it's getting ever so slightly tedious.

I have loved this board. I still love this board. I think it is one of the best places on the interweb.

I don't post much, but read much.

I am shocked at the accusation of goading MNHQ.

This place has saved my sanity on many occasions. I don't post much, but I read it and absorb.

I want to add another thank you to the FWR boards and the very helpful, in depth discussions that take place here. I thought I wasn't a feminist until I read this section
I like FWR because disagreements are discussed and debated in a respectful way, even when it gets heated I find that it's still civil and replies are considered and thought out, unlike Aibu or relationships for example, so I find it odd that FWR is the board with the hostile reputation.

It's also great reading how FWR is helping others with their lives too.

It's very nice to read these lovely posts after a lot of horrible posts recently. I love FWR, it's a great place to read interesting views and it's changed my mind about quite a few issues.

Thanks Lovecat for your kind words.

"I like FWR because disagreements are discussed and debated in a respectful way, even when it gets heated I find that it's still civil and replies are considered and thought out, unlike Aibu or relationships for example, so I find it odd that FWR is the board with the hostile reputation."

I agree with this.

Yes a lot of this furore over the threads in this vein atm are just thinly veiled anti-feminist activism.

I disagree Jackie. Sometimes, certainly, some posters say things about FWR with an agenda to provoke but often it's MNers with a negative impression of the section.

There are sections on MN I don't particularly like; I tend not to post there though or just join in the odd thread that interests me rather than make a general criticism.

OK thanks for the clarification re "strident". I wasn't aware of its history and so I take it back. I still maintain I quite like it as a word (minus those associations) - for me it has (or had) connotations of striding, strength or purposefulness, rather than something negative or belittling, and that was the spirit I used it in.

So maybe what I meant to say to describe the FWR topic is "purposefully intellectual" or some such.

I'll also join the defence of Buffy, always the most measured poster. I have always enjoyed chatting with her on FWR (and other) threads (I'm a regular namechanger but have been around a long time) precisely because I know it's not going to get personal or unpleasant.

I now realise it's coming from the same place as "stridulations" in insects. Have to say I quite like stridulations too...

yonic - having reread my earlier post I'm sorry I singled you out which was a bit rude of me. I was just trying to say that where I dont agree with or fully 'get' a poster I don't think that should be an issue. Hmm I can sense I'm digging a hole here....

No worries

Late to the party but having read what happened with Buffy's post I would be aggrieved in her shoes. I may often disagree with people on here but even when people think I am a goady horrible b*h of a troll I wouldn't report it. Sometimes people say things in the heat of the moment, sometimes people want to provoke a different thought pattern but short of really personal attack things should stay on the board. I hate when people asked that they message be deleted because at the time it was written people see it and part of that message may stay in the memory. HQ should let things stand unless it is a personal attack the victim feels upset about.

I do wonder though if I see someone making a racist statement and call them a racist because of it have I done wrong?

I always thought of strident as hectoring- that particular tone that Thatcher's voice took on sometimes- but used to describe any woman's voice raised above "soft, gentle and low".

I do think there is milage to be had in a discussion about why so many women are so very opposed to the idea of feminism- which I think informs some of the criticism of these boards. But I am too scared to start a thread about it..........

I've long suspected that MN is not terribly keen on the intellectual rigour of this section (not from me I hasten to add) and last night's rash of deletions rather confirms that. Not within the spirit of the brand.

Lovecat - agree with you 100%

I do wonder though if I see someone making a racist statement and call them a racist because of it have I done wrong?

Yes, it's the standard ad hominem rule that applies everywhere (though often broken.) "That's a stupid remark" isn't a personal attack. "You are stupid" is. Now and again, MNHQ seems to get this wrong - or give in to clamour - but rarely, ime. I didn't see the exchange with Buffy above.

On this board and many others, there can be a tendency to make assumptions about a poster based on a poorly worded or misunderstood argument. I completely understand why this happens and it's often a fair assumption. Ideally, an innocent 'target' would come back and reframe their pov, but I don't think failure to do so is proof of guilt.

On the other hand, you get a lot of posters insisting genuine "Why do you think that?" type of questions are veiled attacks. That's ridiculous. The proper way to handle such questions is to answer or ignore. Typed conversation loses inflexion, especially in parsimonious languages like English, so it's more civil to take possible attacks as kindly meant until proved otherwise :) Again, though, I wouldn't blame anyone for not bothering - but those exchanges shouldn't be deleted.

I'm an occasional visitor to the feminist section here and I've seen very little evidence of 'radicals' or 'bullies' or 'our way or No way' thinking.

I do sometimes feel I'm not articulate/well-read/well-informed enough compared to some of the posters on these threads, but that's my problem. And I always enjoy reading them.

"Why do you think that?" may sometimes be a veiled attack, but I'd generally read it as it is: "What is it that causes you to think this way, what is your reasoning?". But then I'm a science teacher, so I ask and answer that question A LOT in every day life.

Yes indeed we are very privileged to have access to the FWR "Regulars" frankly I don't know where I'd be without them.