I thought I was a feminist until someone showed me this forum.

[debucnik]

As in the title I was brought up to believe that feminism is about equality and choice but having recently been introduced to this forum it would appear that that is not the case. The forum gives the impression that feminism is not a choice but compliance to a set of rules.

When did feminism change to fight anyone who doesn't conform to what feminists want, instead of embracing the fact that women are equal with men and its our choice to do what we want?

Mumsnet is one if the very places where I don't feel I have a set of rules to apply to, I often see negative comments about the regulars on FWR, I've only recently started posting but have lurked a very long time and I don't see the patronising thing.

Buffy's posts in particular, really changed my view on life, I read everyone's, but when I first started reading FWR it was Buffy's posts that challenged me, without her even knowing, and this is the first I've mentioned it, she's kind of changed my life, or at least my view on it, I've often typed a long message out saying thank you, and then deleted it because it never sounds right, and from reading the FWR section I've gotten confidence to use my voice, both online and in rl and I really can't thank everyone enough for that.

I've learned not to judge, and to actually listen to other angles, instead of dismissing them as "wrong" I would listen to things being discussed and make my assumptions, based on my life and my upbringing, which is wrong, I've come at things from my upbringing, from my experiences, and now I've learnt to actually think beyond the words someone is saying to me, and think about how they have reached the conclusion they have done, and while it might be different to mine, I have a new respect. Like others have mentioned, I also don't feel articulate enough to express what I'm trying to say, but I've never felt judged. Ever.

I think people, when reading the dissecting of issues, such as wearing make up or sah/woh read the posts tand then take it personally, as a critisicm, but I read it as looking at society and how/why we are where we are, type of thing.

I'm waffling now, but just wanted to say what the OP describes hasn't been my experience and I'm sorry that others have had negative experiences here.

MN is a great place to discuss feminism in detail and exchange views and I have learned a lot, not just from other people's views but because it's helped me to clarify my own. There are bunfights and disagreements but sometimes that's useful. It's helped me to see that things aren't always as clear-cut as I would like.

I would say that feminism is not "about choice", in as much as anyone can make a choice, and it could be a choice that is very bad for themselves as a woman, and for other women. For example, choosing to subject their daughter to FGM is a choice that many women make. The question is why do they. I think they do because of a background context that does not afford women freedom and equality - so for example cultural tradition dictates that a woman won't be acceptable/marriageable without FGM – so that "choice" is distorted.

That's an extreme example but I think it also applies in western/supposedly emancipated society. We may think we are making free choices but when over 80% of women choose to change their name on marriage for example, when almost all men wouldn't, it illustrates the inequality that still underlies the way we (both men and women) think. I think that inequality has a hell of a lot to answer for – it lies behind women not putting themselves forward for jobs when men will, not demanding more pay, the high incidence of male-on-female DV, and so on.

For me, the baseline of feminism is equality and only when we have real equality are choices free. Therefore when I try to "be feminist" I don't say "well I choose X and I'm a woman therefore it's fine" - that makes no sense. What I say is "is this far, is this equal, am I regarding men and women as equals with the choice I'm about to make or the thing I'm about to say/do/demand".

So, I wouldn't change my name on marriage for example, unless it's done 50% by each gender. And when other women do, I don't think they're doing a very feminist thing because they are reinforcing that particular message of gender inequality to their friends, family, DC and so on. So I can see how people can complain about feminist "rules" – but I reserve the right to say "doing XYZ is reinforcing gender inequality, therefore I don't see it as feminist." They can feel free to disagree with me and explain their reasoning.

Not spotted any other "argumentative" posts on that BA thread, still.

All choices are influenced by the society they are made in, whether made by young, old, man or woman. To some this seems like a statement of weakness; I'm never quite clear why.

Yes of course that's true, but as the society we come from is massively skewed in favour of men, that's an issue for feminism to address and for feminists to be aware of.

The same goes for many other things of course - racism, homophobia and so on. What's important is to understand the inequality and see it for what it is, where it is. And challenge it when someone promulgates it.

True, magenta.

I wouldn't normally expect to support Still over Cailin, but why shouldn't Still post here? She finds it interesting and stimulating, as do I. OK so she doesn't agree with everything and yes can occasionally get a bit narky as can we all

I think that kind of links to the point in the op. Not agreeing with feminism doesn't mean she can't engage with discussion on it.

GF, I don't think Cailin means that still shouldn't post.

I like learning on here. You only do that by exploring different viewpoints and thereby challenging your own. I don't know as much about feminism as some others but generally people are supportive of us exploring issues they already know loads about, so I don't recognise that aspect of the op.

"But why come on the feminist board if you don't agree with feminism?"

Sounded a bit like that. Is this a language problem?

GF, it's not so much whether still agrees or disagrees with various feminist positions, it's that it so often seems to annoy her in a personal way that others differ.

The reason I was asking was because Still was saying she didn't agree with feminism and found the way things are discussed on the feminism board frustrating. I think she finds it that way because she and the posters on the board are starting from two very fundamentally different viewpoints. Which makes me wonder why she engages with feminism at all - does she want to convince feminists there's no need for feminism?

Hmmm. I admit I may have noticed that once or twice. Some people are more assertive than others too. Takes all sorts. Just pick it up at the time.

To go back to the religion analogy, if I go on a religion thread and someone says "when babies are baptised their original sin is washed away" why would I get involved in that conversation, seeing as I am not religious and don't believe in religion? If I go on to that thread and say "no actually all that happens is that their head gets wet," what response am I expecting? "Ah yes, I've changed my mind my whole religion is rubbish" or am I expecting quite a negative response to someone who clearly fundamentally disagrees with what I believe?

On the feminist boards we discuss issues from a feminist point of view. If you believe feminism is rubbish then you will just hit a brick wall constantly.

I haven't a clue who still is, but surely anyone can comment on here who is interested in feminism? If you have come on just to be goady, that is a different matter.

Of course you can, but if you come on a thread say, about sexual harassment, to say that men only harass women because women are so attractive and men can't help it then you're going to get your arse handed to you. That's what I mean. Still seemed upset at having her views challenged on feminism threads but if she doesn't agree with feminism, ie the basic ideas that form the foundation of the board, then that's going to happen pretty often. If she's aware of that then there's no problem I suppose.

callin stop making up things I haven't said. Your position seems to be unless I say I agree with feminism I should not post here.

As I have said several times over there are subjects which have been discussed where my views are in line with the concensus, where I may even be in accordance with a radical feminist view point.

There are other subjects where I have disagreed strongly. "Wife work" for example - basically that which makes day to day life work for us and our families. Instead of agreeing an equitable share with our partners, which presumably we are all capable of doing, apparently even now women would rather do the wife work , resent it, call it wife work and complain about it.

You haven't clarified which version of feminism I'm supposed to agree with to pass the entry test. As you will see from Tondelay's post Louise Mensch for exsmple would fail. Most liberal feminists presumably too.

I find it interesting that there are a fair number of threads about this. Not only for FWR either but about the Relationships forum too. There is a fair amount of crossover between the two. In fact a number of people post in both.

Both forums basically boil down to say, women you shouldn't have to endure the shit men throw at you. It's about naming the problem: men's abuse/patriarchy/men's violence/misogyny. FWR tends to look at it on a more systemic, societal level, Relationships on an individual level.

But they both say 'No More' to men. I really think that's what gets people's goat. Women are supposed to be in relationships with men. Women are supposed to please men:

"Similarly there was an extremely rude response to one of the few male posters whose own post had been utterly misinterpreted." Oh dear. That never happens anywhere else but FWR does it?

And I said no such thing on the sexual harassment thread. I made quite clear I was only referring to my own experiences.

"Instead of agreeing an equitable share with our partners, which presumably we are all capable of doing, apparently even now women would rather do the wife work , resent it, call it wife work and complain about it."

See the bit I don't agree with here is "which presumably we're all capable of doing."

Not all women are in the position of having a partner who will pay any attention if she tries to get him to take on some of the wifework. Which is in itself a feminist issue.

You said that you'd never had your bottom pinched (fair enough) even though you wore tight jeans. As if tight jeans, showing off your bottom, would be an invite to sexual harassment. men don't sexually harass women because they find them sexy. They sexually harass women because they feel entitled to.

still I've no idea what Louise Mensch's position as a feminist is but if you're referring to my first post then I stand by it. If you maintain that gender equality has been achieved then you aren't a feminist.

I'm a fairly liberal choicy choice leaning in type of feminist myself btw but don't recognise any of the accusations (slurs) that are thrown (with tedious regularity) at the FWR forum. It's a good place for a meaty discussion where a level of knowledge is assumed and if you don't have yet that, you'll be advised and resourced.

I still see lots of women doing way more housework and childcare than their male partners.

Wifework is a classic example of something that just falls to women as the norm. Obviously not in every single relationship but in the vast majority I know of including mine, men, even nice men, have very little awareness of how much admin and can-carrying and just being on top of things there is to be done, and that's a direct continuation of that situation in their parents' generation. Kids (both boys and girls) grow up seeing women just having to manage households while men swan off/laze about and they internalise that. It's also reflected everywhere, in ads, in the way people talk. "Oh men are no good at that stuff, chuckle!"

To change that, you have to stand up and push against the norm, you have to say "No I won't do all this, no, you can't help yourself to a lie-in or a weekend away whenever you fancy while I drudge, no, I won't sort out Xmas presents for your side of the family, and here is a big pile of school forms to fill in, bills to sort out, presents to obtain, kids parties to organise, holidays to book" etc etc etc etc etc. And doing that involves, in itself, stepping outside the role women are subtly pressured to occupy, of peacemaker, being nice, being amenable, being capable, being a "good mum".

When a woman does this it's quite likely that her DP/DH will be put out, think he's being put upon in relation to his peers, or it often happens that the MIL will not be happy with the wife shuffling some of that work onto him. Yes, you can split that fairly if you have a DP/DH who's ready and willing - they are not the norm.

And that's repeated a million times over in many other arenas of a woman's life - asking for fair pay, keeping her name, what have you. It's not just that the playing field isn't level to start with. It's that in pushing to make it level, you have to push, and be seen as pushy. That is so hard, many women won't even go there. It really is not as simple as "just make an agreement".

Sorry it's been a long day and I've only just managed to catch up with all the posts there have been, as is normally the case some very interesting points of view. I just want to clear up a few things.

Firstly when I said "feminism is about equality and choice" I was not saying that I feel equality has been achieved but that my belief is that this is what feminism is trying to achieve.

The reason I made this post was simply that I had been discussing feminism with a friend who pointed me in the direction of this forum as she had learnt a lot from it. I came and had a look and have come back a few times since but I have found that this thread in particular appears to have a very "our way or No way" attitude to feminism it feels heavily dominated by a few radicals who bully and undermine those who do not share their opinions with seemingly the sole aim of winning the post whilst claiming to be debating the hot topic of the moment. I simply wanted to see if it was just me that felt this way or if this is what is to be expected of the MN community.