I thought I was a feminist until someone showed me this forum.

[debucnik]

As in the title I was brought up to believe that feminism is about equality and choice but having recently been introduced to this forum it would appear that that is not the case. The forum gives the impression that feminism is not a choice but compliance to a set of rules.

When did feminism change to fight anyone who doesn't conform to what feminists want, instead of embracing the fact that women are equal with men and its our choice to do what we want?

That's a surprising conclusion, debucnik.

That's a surprising username, cd69.

Delurking for a minute! Well it's certainly not just you who feels that way there are comments like this about FWR all the time. If you've only made a few visits and you're not familiar with radical feminist thinking, then your visits are going to be characterised by encounters with ideas that are hard to get your head round at first and may challenge your worldview in quite an uncomfortable way. I never contribute on these threads but I read them all and have been doing for years. My views have become very closely aligned now with the radical feminist views expressed on here and I come on very open to being challenged and having my consciousness raised further. I do see some snarky posting and intellectual posturing sometimes but far less I would say than in most forums. You should lurk here more often and your perception may shift. I'll second the pp who praised Buffy for her articulate and thoughtful posting style. Cailindana is another.

Mine's a pun on a Doctor Who gadget. How did you come up with yours?

"I came and had a look and have come back a few times since but I have found that this thread in particular appears to have a very "our way or No way" attitude to feminism it feels heavily dominated by a few radicals who bully and undermine those who do not share their opinions with seemingly the sole aim of winning the post"

Do you think that is happening on this particular thread? That people are being bullied? Could you say where?

I must be reading a different thread to some of you. I can't see any bullying or ganging up. There are so many single issue sections of MN and yet FM is the only one that gets accused of being a mono thought clique. I wonder why

It's surprising, isn't it, oddfodd.

I don't think debucnik was saying that was her conclusion, she was clarifying her OP. When she says "this thread" does she maybe mean "this board/topic" – I've seen that usage before.

Anyway, I do think another point is that when people debate forcefully or in an intellectual/academic way, that can seem "bullying" depending on the tone used. I don't think it necessarily is, and even if someone disagrees with me quite forcefully or even rudely, I enjoy the cut and thrust (though I try to stay polite myself - honest). But for some people that's intimidating and they might read it as "my way or the highway".

Also, there are some feminist posters (like others on other topics) who can be very rude and abusive in a way that is actually frowned upon by MNHQ and not in the spirit of MN. I think what you get to know when you've been here a while is that they are the outliers and others will be supportive (and generally defend anyone against nastiness like that).

I have a friend who considers herself a feminist but who is terrified to come on MN, and I often see people saying AIBU is "scary" for example. I don't get that - I'm not scared at all of someone saying YABU to me and airing their opinions – but I know it's a thing to find MN scary.

Magenta

Is FWR more robust, on average, than AIBU or Politics, do you think?

I'm not sure, I think there is a different atmosphere. It's more stridently intellectual (sometimes) maybe?

"I thread asks why women don't post. It gets answers and the answers are denied. Thereby lies the problem."

I don't think the answers have been denied. For me, the problem is that the answers have been to vague- and certainly my attempts to get more specific ones didn't go down well. My tentative thoughts are these.

1. People sometimes equate being disagreed with with being shouted down.

2)That there are some "thus far and no further" views which if expressed will get a poster her arse handed to her - anyone suggesting that a woman contributed to her own rape or sexual assault, for example.

3. Some people are not used to women expressing themselves forcefully

4. Sometimes people see what they want to see - the thread about the shopkeeper calling someone "love" was a case in point. It was reported on this thread as a poster "exploding with anger" -when all she said was she didn't like it very much.

5. Some posters are fascinated by feminism as an academic subject- I'm sure that can feel very intimidating.

6. There are single issue posters on both sides

7. If you have been a feminist for a very long time (over 40 years in my case) it is difficult not to be exasperated by the fact that we are having exactly the same discussions nowthat we had then- we genuinely thought it'd all be sorted out by now! And I find it hard to keep that exasperation out of my tone- must try harder. And I think that is part of the problem- I have to stop myself saying to women saying they are being bullied on an Internet site "oh for goodness sake, stop being so wet!! Think about what women all over the world have gone through and are going through. I knew women who were beaten up because they went to a consiousness raising group. And you won't post on a feminist board because somebody anonymous said something disobliging to you? Come on sister- fight your corner!" I want to say that, but I don't. But I fully accept that some of that might come through!

Hakluyt Your last point (7) sums up exactly what I feel. I am also exasperated that things have not changed in 40 years as much as I really believed they would have 40 years ago.

I've been on MN for nearly 3 years & have only just lately started to post on the FWR section because of this. I am slightly nervous of posting as I feel less articulate & academic than some of the posters but in no way do I see the 'bullying' that some people perceive.

I've just read the 'love' thread - and find it not just pejorative but basically incorrect to say that is 'exploded in anger'. People talked about the way that it happens in their areas, whether it was or wasn't an issue of gender, gave examples of how they responded in their own lives. There were snarky responses about the fact the OP had a problem with it at all.

Still have you reread that thread? What aspects of it do you find particularly angry - where did the 'explosion' happen, in your view?

To show the power of projection and misreading that FWR threads are subject to - the "love" thread is not about a shopkeeper at all but about the OP's colleagues calling her love when she is often the lone female in her workplace. Completely different context to a shopkeeper.

I agree with Hakluyt's 3) - I work in a notoriously hard nosed and make dominated business for a notoriously hard nosed company. In my business I'm perceived as hard to negotiate with, demanding and argumentative but in fact I'm a lot "softer" than my male colleagues. It's pure perception.

I think this thread is useful. It has brought a lot of feminists onto the feminism board who were not previously posting much on here, myself included.

FWR is, "more stridently intellectual" than AIBU.

And you lot STILL can't work out why your not liked!

AICM was that said by an FWR regular, do you think? Or someone describing their perception as an outsider? Instead of doing snitty one liners, why don't you try and engage with people?

I don't think you can accuse Buffy of being very strident. Or Cailin.

Do you mean to simply observe that the British dislike thought generally? Should that be encouraged do you think? Or challenged?

Are men described as strident, generally?

Men are never strident. Or feisty.

Maybe overtly intellectual would be better? Or sometimes overtly academic?

AIBU is never, as far as I know, either!