What do men think feminists should be focusing their energies on?

[PetulaGordino]

It's pretty clear that there are many men with constructive criticism to offer feminists in terms of what feminist issues they should be focusing their energies, activism and outrage on.

This vital advice is at risk of being lost, spread as it is among myriad threads in this section. Perhaps it would be a good idea to collect it together into one thread, for ongoing reference when posters in this section consider their feminist activities and whether they are really focusing on the right issues.

Obviously it should be borne in mind that feminists are only able to focus strictly on one topic at a time in terms of activism and outrage, so don't overload us with too many issues at once!

IME when women feel excluded by feminism it's almost always either:

Because their views are fundamentally incompatible with most of the major feminist positions

or

Because someone like Magnetic has said "feminists are like this" and they think oh wow I'm definitely not like that

Or when someone like Magnetic has said "feminists believe this" and they think wow I definitely don't agree with that.

Can I de-rail for a second and ask why on a site primarily for women, we still accept that we will be trolled by sexist MRAs? I've been reporting magnetic for a couple days now and asked MNHQ to check his posting history and they wrote me back..."what specifically should we be looking at"

Well all of it tbh. This isn't me having a go at MNHQ either if it looks that way..it's more that for women..we come to just assume this is the way shit happens and let it happen.

The disablist comment by magnetic/float (one of them) was deleted straight away.

Why is magnetic still posting when he calls women who don't chance their names abnormal? When he is here solely to provoke? Would someone in the subsections for disabled parents be allowed to post for days purely to goad them and be disablist?

EElisavetaOfBelsornia

I'd say there you're conforming to a feminist gender role, as is your husband.

I was thinking more of a very large group of women who do not conform to either the traditional role or a feminist one. My girlfriend, for instance, is what feminists have derided as a 'cool girl', despite that she would simply describe herself as a woman who prefers male company and traditionally male past times. This has solidified a hostility to the mainstream feminist movement that, were I a feminist, I would find distressing. She is aware and educated regading feminism, but despises it as she feel it both excludes her and denies her legitimate lived experience.

Here is a woman, fanatical about gender equality and unafraid to speak out against sexism in her daily life, actively engaged with LGBT activism and yet utterly opposed to feminism. Such a paradox is only possible because of the very exclusionary and conformist vision of feminism that has been permitted dissemination with little opposition.

With regards to policing the views of other women, I'd imagine you would use the same mechanism by which I police the views (and sexual behaviour and employment practices) of other men.

Actually sorry I just realised the email was in response to another goady fucker someone else. But point still stands. Can all the MRAs all just fuck off now.

FuckOff Unpersoning flora. You know when you don't accept being a woman is literally down to the clothes you wear.

Oh yes, that's right. Because if I don't like literally accept every thing you say, you like literally cease to exist.

My girlfriend, for instance, is what feminists have derided as a 'cool girl', despite that she would simply describe herself as a woman who prefers male company

Well why do you think she should feel included by a group of females that she derides and feels aren't interesting enough to hang out with?

Why does she accept gender norms to such an extent that she thinks all men behave in a way that is "fun to be around" but that women don't?

She sounds fundamentally incompatible with feminism.

Yeah, I'm with fuckoff (sorry, feels rude to type that!) here.

It's not massively surprising that if you decide to stigmatize a whole group of people based on gender, they may not like you very much.

Jeez. Just caught up with this. Does Magnetic inhabit a parallel universe or summat?

He really can't join the dots can he? Ponders child's join the dots book with Magnetic sucking end of pencil and wondering whether 2 follows 3: decides it has nothing to do with it. Throws book and pencil at wall in distracted fashion.

Here's a sample of how it works…1 = page 3; 2 = take husband's name as he deserves it as special mark of respect because penis; 3 = catcalling women in street; 4 = grope unknown woman in nightclub; 5 = have sex with drunk woman; 6 = it's OK to have sex with drunk woman because she was probably gagging for it, but who cares anyway, 7 = I called her 'love' so it can't be rape; 8 = don't like feminists 'cos they worry about trivial stuff like 1 to 7; 9 = why don't feminists worry about important stuff like female genital modification (Magnetic apologies for Freudian slip); 10 gawd knows 'cos Magnetic has run out of fingers…...

To not be able to see how all these little things are interwoven into one general shit-load background of disrespect is to be pretty bloody dense.

This has solidified a hostility to the mainstream feminist movement that, were I a feminist, I would find distressing.

You're sad because we're not sad your GF doesn't want to hang out with us? Even though she's super cool?

Yep.

Although I have heard them explain it as being "raped" by feminists too. yeah.

I've never derided anyone as being a "cool girl"

I'm pretty cool myself thanks.
Although not a girl.

Super cool. Will Call of Duty you under the couch, and then make you nachos.

i know no feminists who spend any time in men's company or enjoy past times traditionally enjoyed by men

not one

If one person saying something is enough to put someone off an entire political movement, I would suggest that they weren't very disposed towards that movement in the first place.

It's not as if there's a feminist document that says "women who like men are shit" is there.

Then she might do a pole dance or some ironic burlesque.

at petula.

I am most definitely not married to one petula. I definitely didn't give birth to any either.

Are you saying pole dancing isn't the most empowering thing ever?

Oh, it's well known that feminism has to be serious, or we can't be accused of being humourless.

Who's ultimately responsible for 'disseminating' that (flawed and incorrect) view of mainstream feminism, Meph? If argue strongly that it isn't just down to feminists, particularly when you consider channel ownership.

I'm quite interested in what you'd consider non-feminist, non-traditional gender roles?

There's got to be more going on than just your girlfriend liking activities our society labels as "male", Mephistopheles. I have spent a lot of time in predominantly male groups because of liking a lot of things society thinks of as male gendered (science, football, climbing, to name just 3). But I do self-identify as a feminist (with radical leanings). Maybe it's because I view it that I just happen to like stuff that society mis-labels as male, rather than thinking that the stuff I like is better or that "women's" concerns are somehow inferior. Because the alternative way of conceptualising the issue (that men's stuff is the serious, interesting stuff) is of course the traditional patriarchal interpretation of things, and (surprise surprise) is used to shore up a status quo where women are seen as inferior.

The original rant about cool girl feminism incidentally was about women who identified as liking "male" pursuits and company not because they genuinely did, but in an attempt to curry male favour - which as many writers have pointed out (Dworkin in Right Wing Women, to name one eg), is, on an individual level an extremely effective strategy for advancement in a patriarchal society, even if it has the side effect of collectively shafting others of your gender.

Hanging out in predominantly male groups (which then tend to treat you as an honourary man) is an interesting experience, I find. Part participant observer anthropologist, part discovery that (hold the front page) actually there aren't nearly such huge gender differences as there are supposed to be.

Christ, slow typing. By the way, has magnetic explained yet why he thinks child abuse is a feminist/women's issue?

I got lost in the intense trivia of having a husband who respects me and my past as much as I respect him and his. Frankly, it's kind of a drag to have a Partney who consists me as an actual equal person.

I'm weeping into my tea because some people don't like us. Boo hoo hoo. It's even put me off my chocolate fudge cake.

Pass the cake over here if you don't want it up.

I am Pmsl at the idea that I am being disrespectful to dp as I am not taking his name when we get married in may. We gave the madthings both surnames,is that disrespectful as well?

FloraFox

What does this mean in the context of feminism? Nothing.

Actually, I'm sure that some strands of feminism have looked at toxic feminity through the lens of female agency - I was half hoping that someone would say I was wrong and give me a link! Can't currently find any.

Feminists generally do not accept gender roles. Another meaningless statement.

That's not strictly true, though - as the multiple responses to my description of my girlfriend attest, feminists do believe there is a 'wrong' way for women to behave, or at least one that justifies insult and contempt. To a sociologist, this seems little different to the way that the traditional gender roles were enforced.

Unpersoning? What a crock.

Denying the validity of peoples lived experience then, if the term offends you. I'd imagine you're a TERF? I wasn't actually seeking to comment on trans-issues, as I have no trans-people to whom I can listen to for information on their perspective. It was more a descriptor of the dismissive attitude towards the genuine suffering others can experience, regardless of the reason for it.

FuckOffGroundhog et al

I should clarify. My girlfriend has small number of very close female friends. She loves them dearly and it would appear the affection is returned. She says that she finds the forms of interaction that characterise male dominated groups easier to navigate than female dominated ones and as such, given a preference between two groups of strangers she would gravitate to the male dominated group - not as a value judgement, but in an internal sense that she is more likely integrate with the group more easily based on shared interests and a natural tendency, evident from a young age, to more easily adopt behavioural tropes that have been seen as male.

She feels that feminist groups are exclusionary not because they are composed mostly of females, but because feminists make a number of exceptionally hostile assumptions about her and, incidentally, men.