What do men think feminists should be focusing their energies on?

[PetulaGordino]

It's pretty clear that there are many men with constructive criticism to offer feminists in terms of what feminist issues they should be focusing their energies, activism and outrage on.

This vital advice is at risk of being lost, spread as it is among myriad threads in this section. Perhaps it would be a good idea to collect it together into one thread, for ongoing reference when posters in this section consider their feminist activities and whether they are really focusing on the right issues.

Obviously it should be borne in mind that feminists are only able to focus strictly on one topic at a time in terms of activism and outrage, so don't overload us with too many issues at once!

"Is there not however room for an interpretation that in some contexts and some circles it is a mark of inclusivity?"

I absolutely agree that that can be the case.

I think the context of this discussion about it is key - it came up because of talk about women who are proud to be called an 'honorary man', and about men bestowing it on women as a top-notch compliment - which to me does indicate, in a small and not world ending way, just one more little thing among many, the idea that male-ness is a superior state of being.

The general idea of someone calling someone an honorary something isn't something I have an issue with and I don't think anyone else does either.

And indeed, honorary status within a group is no indication of their belief in your status outside of it.

A football player might be recognised as an honorary rugby player. To do so does not establish the rugby players opinion of him as a football player, only as being equivalent to a rugby player.

Meph you didn't say equal. You said

"If you consider black people to be superior to you, then you would regard it as a compliment to be included."

But to say 'is it a compliment to be told you are equal'...

a) A man telling me 'hey! I think you are equal to me and that is a compliment says that prior to his decision that I was equal, I was not. What does that say about what that man thinks of the position of most women?

b) We ARE equal. Whether we are treated as equal is another question. 'You have brown hair!' is not a compliment because I do. Equality is a value judgement that exists when you have INequality. When equality is something to be desired.

c) Yay! A man told me I could be equal!

Because the honour shouldn't have to be conferred by men meph which in the case of being an 'honorary man' it would be.

Women should be acknowledged as equals without it having to be an honour at all.

If someone is giving you equal status, despite lacking other qualifying details, surely this is an indication they feel equal to you?

Surely the opposite is true? If the perception or belief was you were actually equal, then no "equal status" would need to be given at all. Or indeed be anyones to 'give'.

"the idea that male-ness is a superior state of being"

I think of this slightly differently. It is my perception that male-ness is not so much thought of as a superior state of being- more that male-ness is the norm. The "proper" way to be a human is to be male. Women can aspire to that state- aspire to the things that are properly men's things. That's why men often don"t understand that they have privilege-because looked at through their eyes, they don't. They are just people. If women tried harder, they could be people too.

Hakluyt you're right actually, that's a much more accurate way to put it.

Meph, the way I see it, if a person is conferred with "honorary" membership of a certain social group, the implication is that they are not worthy of membership otherwise for whatever reason. You can become an honorary fellow of my professional body if you don't qualify to be a "real" fellow but for whatever reason have proved yourself worthy to circumvent that process of approval. Being an honorary fellow is a good thing, as it confers status, but it also implies you're an outsider who is being inducted into a group by the grace of other people's will rather than on your own merits.
So those women who made you an "honorary woman" were being kind, of course they were, but the implication behind them saying that was that men aren't welcome in their group for whatever reason, but you've shown qualities beyond a man and so you're being conferred with a status that can be given and taken away by them. You are not there on merit, you are there on their judgement.

When you have a difference in power such as that which exists between men and women the implications of "honorary" status in one group or another are very different. But the essential message is the same I think - we are conferring this status on you because you are fundamentally different and can never be one of us but we're willing to overlook your failings, for now.

If you don't see it as a compliment to be equal to men, do you instead regard yourself as superior?

Is this a genuine question Meph?

Why would it be a compliment to not be considered inferior to someone? Surely being considered equal should be the norm?

I see my equality to men as a simple fact.

I'm just waiting (not so patiently) for too much of the world to open their eyes.

"If someone is giving you equal status, despite lacking other qualifying details, surely this is an indication they feel equal to you?" What other qualifying details must I have to be seen equal to anyone?

I don't consider it a compliment to be classed as equal to men, by men. Because I am equal and that equality doesn't rest on their validation that I'm somehow 'fit' to be part of their group.

And men bestowing the title of 'honorary man' (a.k.a worthy/equal status as human being) to a select few women (who fit their exacting standards) is a reflection that they think all the other women are worth less than them.

How can anyone think they have any fucking right to confer "equal status" to another human being?

Makes me so angry.

Indeed LordCopper Mephistopheles you are being very offensive on this thread.

cailindana (and everyone else, it's just that you seem to have clearly explained everyone else questions)

Thank you for explaining your perspective, I can see where I was misunderstanding the points being raised.

My perspective differs somewhat to yours, but I do not dispute the validity of your own. It is likely mine has been effect both by my gender and neural status.

From your perspective (if I understand correctly - I will admit I am struggling due to my own limitations, not as a result of your explanation) an honorary status can only be conferred by a superior to an inferior. As such, doing so is always fundamentally an indication of the conferee being regarded as inferior and therefore an indication of fundamental inequality.

Personally, I would regard honorary status as being precisely the same as being accepted on merit, as merit is always based on the judgement of the accepting group. It is simply that the merit is unconventional and the group in question has expanded their definitions for the purpose of inclusion. I would regard this as a positive thing and indicative of an open minded acceptance of other achievements that can be accommodated by the value structure.

With regards to my other question you referenced, it was because I was interpreting the multiple responses that stated the honorary position as insulting as stating that being considered equal to men as insulting. I didn't believe that feminists actually had that much animus against men, but I was beginning to be convinced otherwise. Thank you again for clarifying.

If being called an honorary man was a compliment as it means they think I'm equal to them then I wouldn't think it was a compliment because they must think the women who they haven't declared honorary men are not equal? Which they are. I think I'd take it as an insult in that context tbh, like I can say I'm equal cos they've confirmed it kind of thing.

I think if you see people as equal to you, you don't stick any kind of label or title on it. It shoudlnt be a compliment, as you should be equal anyway.

Took me ages to write the above, (I worry I'll mess up what I'm trying to say) hope it makes as much sense as it did in my head.

And also it takes me that long that when I finally press post everyone has already said better

If I have been offensive, I apologise, I am very sorry.

Please report my posts and have them removed.

Anything but an honorary Gooner. I think in the 'men/women' context it is offensive. It obviously depends on the power dynamics of the group and the person being welcomed to the group. I personally wouldn't mind being an honorary upperclass person for the day, but I have friends from my class that may.
I think the offence comes from the word honorary.

I am really sorry, it is obvious I have made a mistake.

I was never referring to anything other than specific groups conferring equality according to the judgements of specific groups.

I do not see men and women as distinct or specific groups, save for the practical purposes of medicine and the correction of outstanding social issues.

Please, I am sorry. I'll go.

We come back to the age old distinction between feminists having animus for individual men (we don't) and having animus for men as a class which we might well have.

A way of understanding why "honorary man" is offensive might be to revert to childhood and think about Julian of the Famous Five's observation about George "She's almost as good as a boy". The same sentiment- different words. And Julian's words are undeniably offensive..........

Meph I don't think you need to apologise and disappear. I think it should be clear to most people reading that you've been very open and genuine, and it's been useful for me to read and digest others' interpretations of the various questions.

meph

I agree with what

Meph I think you've been pretty good at asking for clarification and accepting times when we've all misunderstood eachother without just insisting that we come around to your way of thinking.

I also do think that it's a rare thing that a man comes online, has a bunch of women explain many of the things that piss us off about male/female relations, and doesn't react extremely badly. Which you haven't, so kudos for that.