If you have dds, do you think their life will be better than yours (from the pov of being a woman, not in general)?

[Takver]

Struggling with how to word this, but I was thinking about it the other day. I left school in 1988, so a long time ago now. I would say that the opportunties I had were noticeably better than say if I'd been 10 years older and finished school in 1978. But I don't really see that there have been any major improvements since then. As in, I don't think my dd will have a better chance in life than I did, as regards sexism. What do others reckon - am I being pessimistic?

I guess my comparison would be that life for a LGBTQ teen would I think be a great deal better than for someone in the same position 30 years ago, although obviously there is still bullying, intolerance et al.

Uh I didn't actually.

Urgh at coming on to advise us that you mother who is nearly 70 is entirely hairless and loves anal.

WTAF?

I'm just really boggled at that.

Anyway, in response to the OP.

It's kind of different I think. So some things have come on a long way - maternity leave, employment type stuff, discrimination, overt sexism

Some things are the same or worse - mainly around appearance / sex stuff & huge pressure due to constant social media.

SQ, read back and ask yourself this - who mentioned those two things? Who brought them to this thread, in the context of my mother? Was it me? Is that what you read?

I think you're missing the point.

Girls these days are expected to meet different and more time consuming standards of personal grooming than their parents did. Due to the proliferation of easily accessible porn, depicting as standard many acts that would have been considered quite "advanced" in decades gone by, girls are increasingly being pressurised into performing acts which would previously have generally not been on the cards until further along in one's sexual career. Sex learnt from porn also focusses on males "doing stuff" to females rather than showing mutually pleasurable experiences.

These are the sort of issues that concern people, and which were referred to upthread, in that while some things have improved, others have worsened.

When referenced, your response "well my 70yo mum is hairfree and loves anal" seems odd. It doesn't feel like you are really engaging with the issues, somehow.

You yops advised us that your daughter has it much better than you mother.

I then said the sexual expectations placed on your mother would have been very different than those put on your daughter.

I never commented on your mother's sexual proclivities, anal or otherwise. You freely chose to share that information. Makes you wonder why?

I suppose you are saying that you have no problem with girls being held to ever more time consuming standards of personal grooming and pressurised into "trickier" sex acts.

Which is one perspective but these are the sort of issues that people who post on FWR get concerned about.

Although arguably it's the pressure rather than the sex act itself - the fact of girls being treated in A&E for rectal injury in increasing numbers is concerning but then unwanted pregnancy / STDs are no laughing matter. I'd take the view that it's the fact of coercion being quite normal in teen relationships, and the view that the purpose of sex is for the male to get the female to do things that he will enjoy but she won't. While the coercion was there when I was growing up, the gist of sex was that it was supposed to be mutually pleasurable and there was more experimentation. Now it is much more prescribed as porn is seen as a checklist of acts to do to someone or have them do to you and always from a male perspective.

that that pressure exists is no doubt. What can / would make our daughters more resistant to these pressures, more able to speak out assertively and with confidence? Can they be more confident to say no, than say, we were in previous decades? And if not, why not?

The focus should be on teaching boys (and therefore men as they grow up) about issues around consent, coercion and so on to try and counteract other toxic influences.

And of course on teaching girls that they don't have to do anything they don't want to etc.

But positioning it with an idea that it's all on the girls to fend off boys won't get us anywhere in the longrun as it maintains this Victorian approach of girls being "the gatekeepers of sex" when what we actually want is people undertaking to have mutually pleasurable & safe encounters together IYSWIM.

I'm not sure, we can keep banging on about consent in sex...but when sex is being redefined by hardcore pornography I don't know if it really means anything. If our daughters (and their partners) are being taught that this is what sex should be this is what they will do. Confidence won't matter

And I suppose you are backing down from trying to twist words and meanings, because your 'buddy' and not me introduced anal sex, shaved genitals and my mother into the same post. How mealy-mouthed of you. All stemming from me talking about taking my daughter to university. You would have gone fucking mental if it had been the other way round. Pathetic.

I haven't got teenagers yet, but is a shame if there is coercion around sex nowadays. It has changed significantly from my teenager years as I don't think teenage boys did coerce girls back then.

They need to teach that porn is like any other films it is not real it is a story, a fantasy.

They need to teach about the types of personal grooming that men & women who are employed in porn undertake, that they are chosen because of certain assets, that different porn is made to appeal to different people, that scenes are cut, that both men and women can and do drug themselves in order to perform, and so on and so on. That it does not represent real life sex in the sense of 2 (or even more!) people getting it on very much at all really. Real sex is a lot more hit and miss - especially with a new partner or trying new things - and should be fun & etc etc and so on.

That's what I think anyway I can't see another way to tackle it.

Huh?

Yops I don't know what you're talking about.

What is your view on the levels of personal grooming expected, and the large-scale consumption of porn, on girls in 2015?

And I suppose you are backing down from trying to twist words and meanings, because your 'buddy' and not me introduced anal sex, shaved genitals and my mother into the same post.

I'm not sure you're right there, Yops, sorry, the two posts went as follows (you're in bold, Groundhog is in italics):-

There is no comparison between the opportunities that gran and granddaughter have in their lives.

Yes and I bet there was absolutely no expectation that your mother be completely hairless and in to anal either

She is both - always been a free spirit, has mum.

So, while Groundhog said, quite rightly, that your daughter will have completely different sexual norms imposed on her, you were the one who suggested that your mother had always embraced those norms, because she's a free spirit..... which is a touch grim, really.

Yops,. FOGH could have phrased her post better perhaps, by using "your mother's generation" or similar - but your response with specifics about your mother, wasn't necessary. Even if you did make them up.

If you'd said "err, prefer not to have my mother and that thought in the same sentence, actually" then couldn't we have gone on having PARD?

It's undoubtedly true that some things are better for your DD than your mother, and some worse.

I sometimes despair of the attitude of my dd. Just tonight she has said she doesn't want to go the school disco because none of the boys have asked her to dance with them and she willl look an idiot an have to hide in the toilet at the end. WTF!!!? Where does this crap come from? First of all she is 9 (???), and secondly, why on earth does she feel the need to wait to be asked, and thirdly why does she need to have a boy validate her credibility at school. This certainly hasn't come from us!! But this crap is out there! Why?

X post puffins, who put it better.

zero there have been various studies that show coercion is still rife, unfortunately. I'm not surprised really. I think there have been studies that show teens in general lack empathy (it's a developmental thing apparently!) and that + extreme randiness is never going to be a good call. Certainly teens both boys and girls like to push boundaries with all sorts of things and experiment not sure how we could change that. It's that stuff which was always there + children learning how to "do sex" from misogynist porn that is concerning really. In my day they were grateful for a blow job those days have long passed IYSWIM. Expectations are different.

I'm the same age as you, OP and have a 4 yo.

I think life will be better for her as a woman in that she is growing up mc not wc (with the concomitant advantages in terms of gender issues) and that she has better role models than I did.

In societal terms - I hope she'll benefit from greater career opportunities and the normalization of women doing certain jobs (eg doctor, computer scientist).

I am very concerned about the pornification of society - it has been creeping up on us since I was at university. I think the things we can do about this are (1) campaign, (2) educate our sons, (3) raise our daughters' self-esteem so that they are better equipped to deal with it, and (4) be a feminist rock for our own dds and for other younger women - in the workplace, and out and about. Our DPs should also keep to the same standards and work on all of these - we need to make sure they are included working to the same agenda.

because she's a free spirit..... which is a touch grim, really.

well, yeah.. I didn't realise that my freeness of spirit was directly related to labial hair and how much I like bum sex.

Anyway I am 100% sure Yops knows exactly what I meant and only added the disturbing mental image their mother to irritate feminists.

I don't believe studies like that sardine. There are many lovely teenagers, and saying things like that normalises behaviour that is far from normal.

I think Yonic has summed it up, so I'll leave it at that. I must remember in future that sarcasm/light-hearted responses are only welcome from feminists. Men must refrain.

Porn is prevalent in our society. But it has been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Dirty sketches, the Karma Sutra, end of the pier Victorian 'What the butler saw' machines. It exists in societies outside the UK that have lower incidences of sexual assault than the UK. It is banned in societies where women are treated like animals. So how much is it to blame for current attitudes? I don't know - how would you measure it? What are you measuring anyway?

Every generation thinks it invented sex, and every previous generation thinks the current on is going to the dogs. This is not the first generation to wear make-up, or shave their pubes, or worry about the opposite sex, or feel peer pressure about 'doing it'. I remember reading my friend's 'Jackie' back in the 70's, and girls wondering about how far to go, and how much further their friends have been. And going back to dear mum - she grew up in the swinging sixties. I actually have no idea what she got up to, but the pill because available and attitudes changed hugely in a very short time-span. I think it's a bit naive to assume that she was some chaste maiden to guarded her virtue until my dad showed up.

I must remember in future that sarcasm/light-hearted responses are only welcome from feminists. Men must refrain.

NO but in the feminism section we do tend to stick to coherent discussions about feminism, and comments from men about how much better women today have it while not actually understanding anything about being a woman today do tend to go down like a lead balloon.