If you have dds, do you think their life will be better than yours (from the pov of being a woman, not in general)?

[Takver]

Struggling with how to word this, but I was thinking about it the other day. I left school in 1988, so a long time ago now. I would say that the opportunties I had were noticeably better than say if I'd been 10 years older and finished school in 1978. But I don't really see that there have been any major improvements since then. As in, I don't think my dd will have a better chance in life than I did, as regards sexism. What do others reckon - am I being pessimistic?

I guess my comparison would be that life for a LGBTQ teen would I think be a great deal better than for someone in the same position 30 years ago, although obviously there is still bullying, intolerance et al.

And if it was that post, many WOHP posts on all sections of MN often get far worse responses than that. (And ditto posts from SAHPs too) - the poster made it clear that it wasn't her choice but wouldn't want it taken away from others.

Elsewhere I've seen "why have kids if you aren't going to parent them" etc etc.. (WOHP here!)

Well, since I don't believe that staying at home is a good choice, that bit doesn't worry me.

Sorry Gently, as often happens with specialsnowflakes some posters. You made a comment about your job (like other posters did) and then someone else said, that unrelated to employment they are concerned that women in that poster's situation won't have that choice. And your reply to that (which you weren't asked for because it was nothing to do with you) was the actually quite rude statement above.

No one was rude to you, no one commented except to ask about your career. Is that what you are actually annoyed about?

It's not whataboutery to talk about a not insignificant number of women who are sahp.

I think the daycare response was in response to Gently's comment that staying at home was a bad choice so she doesn't care if other's get the option was much ruder than saying she doesn't want other parent's to lose the choice to put their children in daycare

That was a bit garbled, hopefully you get the gist.

Yonic No, it was this

But taking a completely different line from the career thing, most women's opportunity to stay home with their kids, (which I believe is a valid choice, and one I made myself, as a feminist) has completely disappeared now, with the additional financial pressures on families, and the need for two incomes.

Which seemed to me to be a complete 'thanks for your contribution but now back to the real issue'

I think that a lot of stuff has got worse for everyone, not just women, but there are some things, and yes maybe they are only career related and maybe I am a terrible person for 'putting my kids in daycare', which have improved. And it might be useful to consider how they have changed and why they have changed and whether that change can be reflected in other areas of life and if not why not.

But I have occasionally read or posted on other threads in here in the past and seem broadly the same thing happen.

Fuckoff I'm not remotely annoyed. It most certainly was whatabouttery - it was also classist whatabouttery which makes it worse. I know I was a bit rude back to her, hence I don't mind her making that nasty comment about daycare. It was far enough in the circumstances. But I think she is wrong on just about every level. She was essentially bemoaning the fact that a previously privileged way of life (being able to afford to live on one income) was being taken away. Without even recognising that she was privileged.

The financial pressures being placed on families are indeed horrendous but not because they are 'forcing' SAHMs to go out and earn a living. You have to be a really special snowflake to think that.

But there had been several posts about careers before yours Gently . I just took it that poster wanted to point out the erasure of choice on the other side of the coin.

Buffy Fine. I'm gone.

Various people before you had spoken about careers, GB. I took that as a "yup, careers, and also here's another problem that's getting better/worse" and not anything personal.

But these discussions about how crap me and women I I like are make me very sad. So I'll leave it.

Oh bollocks to it all.

Which seemed to me to be a complete 'thanks for your contribution but now back to the real issue

Please read back through the previous comments you will about 5 or 6 posters previously before you mentioned the work issue.

The poster discussed stay at home parents, because it was a situation that mattered to her. She was in no way required to mention you or in any other previous posters just as you did not acknowledge any of the previous posters.

I read somewhere (can't remember where) that the rise in expectations of women in terms of grooming/appearance/sex is correlated with the amount of power women have in society. So it's used as a way of putting women back in their place. What are people's views on that argument

Short answer, I agree.

FuckOffGroundhog: I agree too. As an old gimmer (sorry about emphasising that, but it's just because I am pretty much 2 generations away now from the 1960s when women began to get empowered work-wise so I've watched my DDs' experiences after my own and now that of today's 20+ generation).

There definitely seems to be a reverse correlation between 'professional' power and society expectations appearance wise/sexually.

As if society is saying "OK ladies you've had a good education, you've got a good job, you earn good money - now let's make sure you know that your real role is to be appealing and be accommodating, just to make sure you don't get above yourself".

Difficult to put a finger on, it can seem a bit paranoid but why now have we got so many girls/young women who feel that have to 'perform' for their fella whether they want or not, have to be laid back about objectifying porn etc. In short, so many seem unable to stand up for themselves in these situations.

Not putting it very well, but it seems as if we have power in one area we have to give it up in another so the scales don't become tilted.

Oh bugger. Not sure what I mean except it's an elephant - difficult to describe but I sure know that's what I'm seeing.

I am an infrequent poster on this board, only posting occasionally (perhaps a dozen times before today). I find it quite a safe place to post as if there is disagreement it usually feels quite civilised and discursive rather than degenerating into a sweary slanging match.

I find people apologize here more than anyone else on MN hmc

also when someone threatens a flounce most of the "regulars" will try and change their mind (as above, myself not included) Anywhere else and you'd get a quick "off you fuck then"

I think feminism itself has changed between my heyday and the world my dd's are in.
I think its far more accepted to be a feminist.
That has to be an achievement women can feel proud of.

"I read somewhere (can't remember where) that the rise in expectations of women in terms of grooming/appearance/sex is correlated with the amount of power women have in society."

I think that's very likely. I also feel like there is far more pressure to make young girls 'girly', perhaps for the same reason? So in the 70s we could all wear dungarees & have our hair cut short almost because there was so much differentiation elsewhere (different lessons in school etc)?

Blimey, step away from the Internet to get a bit of a life and return to find yourself accused of "classist whataboutery".

Anyway, apart from the jibing, this thread is very interesting.

"How can you equip a girl without shades of victim (pre)blaming if it all goes wrong?"

That's a really good and helpful question - and I guess as well we should be thinking about equipping boys to deal with this environment as well. The only real useful thing I've heard suggested wrt pornification / pressures on both sexes so far is to talk a lot about enthusiastic consent, and make the point that everyone involved in any activities is meant to be enjoying themselves and be happy with everything.

I am wary as mentioned up thread of the risk of portraying girls as 'fighting off' randy teenage boys, I find that very unhelpful, going back to a 'chaste women' vs 'impure men' dynamic. Also practically, thinking back to my own teenage years, as girls we were equally as sex-obsessed as the boys.