Men have done such a number on us that even women don't even know what rape is

[cailindana]

Now I know Judy Finnegan is not a paragon of intellectual prowess.

But still, I would never have thought such stupidity could fall from her lips: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29598732

She said the rape was "not violent." So what was it then? Friendly? Enjoyable? Just a little game?

How how how how how do we live in a world where a woman can't recognise the extreme violence of having your body used by another person?

Why would you think there's a list of approved opinions? Genuinely? Because people are disagreeing with you? But that's just the nature of a discussion on a website.

how is only ever having sex when they genuinely want it damaging for women?

Brighton

It is equally emotionally abusive to expect a man to be punished for not reading his female partners mind.

No-one is asking anyone to be a mind reader. The question that would be put to a jury is (based on the evidence), was it reasonable for the man to have believed that the woman was consenting. If that is his case, then it is his job to provide this evidence for the jury.

Hope that helps. Cadno.

Hi Sabrina,

Still it doesn't follow so would be a fan? He is a convicted rapist. If I'm taking flack for defending (largely!) the status quo why would I be a fan of someone who has been convicted by said status-quo?

I find some of the alternate approaches completely rob women of agency and criminalise behaviour that should not be criminal - I hope that answers your question.

Hi Cat - yes I agree! I was getting the feeling that I was slaying a sacred cow or something with my opinions, I agree that is how discussions go but don't want to have missed the forum rules.

Cadno,

I take your point but I guess I am talking about behaviour that should never need to go in front of a jury. I get that peoples genuinely held beliefs are important when taking about criminality.

you're a longtime lurker but you think there are forum rules about opinions?

I don't really care if you're a fan or not, brighton. It's not really an issue - the issue is that you're writing stuff that is very damaging to women's rights over their own bodies here.

A while ago I asked you 2 questions - neither of which you answered.

Petula - yes

Sabrina - which questions were those? sorry I missed them!

Hi Cat - yes I agree! I was getting the feeling that I was slaying a sacred cow or something with my opinions, I agree that is how discussions go but don't want to have missed the forum rules.

No of course not. But surely you're aware you're posting on a board populated by women who believe passionately in women's bodily integrity, and the right to withdraw/deny sexual consent and not be raped? Many people on here (me included) have suffered rape.

I've experienced it twice and the reason your posts have got to me is that the second time is precisely the rape scenario that's being discussed here. Agreed to share a bed (was at uni, more accepted thing) and the man persisted, persisted, persisted, I didn't know what to do and didn't have the confidence to kick him the fuck out, didn't know how he'd react, so when he "went in for it" I let him. What kind of man ignores a woman's "no, I don't want to? No I need to sleep? No, I'm not on the pill." And still wants to have sex with her?

You might think I gave tacit consent, but for me it was rape.

brighton, why do you say this?:

We all benefit from 2 not being rape.

As I see it, it only benefits men who are comfortable bullying women for sex.

but I see many of the alternate opinions being express as being quite damaging to women!

Can you explain how? All the opposing posts to yours are objecting to women being bullied into sex, being harassed or abused into "consenting" (it's ok your honour, she said yes), or the onus being on men to ensure consent. How is that damaging to women outside of a Mills & Boon fiction ?

I am sorry that scumbag did that to you, Cat.

It's ok, Seven. That was the better of the two experiences.

how is women's agency assisted by them having sex they don't want, i wonder? the two are mutually exclusive

Hi Cat,

'you're aware you're posting on a board populated by women who believe passionately in women's bodily integrity, and the right to withdraw/deny sexual consent and not be raped?'

Yes, I am aware of that and I believe non of my opinions go against that! That why I was surprised - there was a feeling of 'if you don't believe x, y or z you must be pro rape' which is obviously not realistic!

I am sorry for your experience - it sounds horrible. You said no and he continued - I think that is rape.

Petula,

When I chipped in to the discussion someone had stated that if a man refused to help with house work until his partner consented to sex then any subsequent sex was rape. Even if she clearly said yes. You may disagree but I find that to be infantilising!

That woman have so little agency as to make such a scenario realistic and also that women are somehow so easy to manipulate that their delicate emotions need to be protected and can't be expected to stand up for their own boundaries.. not violence, or threads of violence, but not helping around the house!

It's not infantilising women to expect men to respect their boundaries, to respect their bodily integrity.

It should be a given.

Can you remind me where that post about the housework was again, brighton?

I was looking around the part where you came onto the thread but couldn't spot it.

Post by AskBasil, yesterday 21:01.

I saw a few posts which said that if a man has pestered persuaded etc a woman for sex and eventually she caves and says OK then, that he has the mindset of a rapist. Of course he does. He is fucking someone who he knows full well doesn't want him inside her, and he can d it merrily because "technically" he is doing nothing wrong, he got his magic "consent".

Sabrina - agreed!

"women are somehow so easy to manipulate that their delicate emotions need to be protected and can't be expected to stand up for their own boundaries.. not violence, or threads of violence, but not helping around the house!"

Again, you do not understand abuse or socialisation.

S7S - considering rape is 100% a matter of consent, having that consent is quite important, not a technicality!

Petula - again, I'm afraid that is just a cheap ad him way of not engaging with what I've said. I'm glad to say I do understand but understanding of something doesn't automatically always lead two people to the same conclusions.