Men have done such a number on us that even women don't even know what rape is

[cailindana]

Now I know Judy Finnegan is not a paragon of intellectual prowess.

But still, I would never have thought such stupidity could fall from her lips: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29598732

She said the rape was "not violent." So what was it then? Friendly? Enjoyable? Just a little game?

How how how how how do we live in a world where a woman can't recognise the extreme violence of having your body used by another person?

The concept that women are in a constant state of consent until they say 'no.' The onus on women to fight off their rapist. The complete ignorance surrounding the nature of sexually abusive relationships - and how women are encouraged to blame themselves.

It's all wrong -- the onus should be on the man to ensure the woman is consenting. It's really not that difficult, is it?

The onus is on both partner to make sure the other understands what they are feeling. I don't think it is all womens or all mens responsibility, but we are all adults!

It is equally emotionally abusive to expect a man to be punished for not reading his female partners mind.

Ok Brighton whatever.

What Cailin said

"as soon as his hands wander, she pushes them off. He continues and continues despite her protests that she's not really interested"

what part of that requires mindreading?

no one is going to be punished for respecting another's bodily integrity

fuck it

i'm with cailin and seven

men who don't want to rape women will understand

Hi Cailin - thanks for the reply but my message was aimed at anyone who wants to read it, not just you, although it's ok that you don't want to engage with it.

I'm backing cailin, seven and Petula

If your partner has not given enthusiastic consent to sex and you have sex with them anyway there is something VERY wrong with you.

Thanks for making it ok Brighton. It's not ok that you don't understand what rape is. But that's why I started the thread in the first place so thank you anyway for proving my point so clearly.

What caillin and petula said.

The onus is on men not to rape women - no man is expected to be a mind reader in order to avoid raping a woman, he just needs to ensure she wants sex. If she bats his hands away, or freezes, then he needs to think again. It's not that difficult for men unless they're a bit rapey in the first place

Hi Cailin,

I understand this is something that makes you talk in a hostile way - but I am in every way entitled to my own opinions and I shall continue to express them, hopefully in a polite way :)

Oooh nice PA smiley use

Think we are getting somewhere here laydeez.

Brighton, I defended you yesterday as I thought your detached stance was adding an interesting and important angle to the debate.

Today, however, your comments are nothing short of misogynistic victim-blaming.

cailin, I have pm'ed you

• lol @ @ women getting a bit "hostile" when talking about rape.

It's such a shame isn't it, that lovely laydeez need to get so worked up about this, isn't it. So unfeminine.

If only they'd talk about it nicely maybe men would listen to them.

Hi Annie,

I appreciate your defence yesterday, but I understand if you don't agree with what I've said today - although harmony is nice! I guess I don't see it terms on attack and defence though, it's just a discussion on a website.

However politely you express your opinion, brighton, it is an opinion that is damaging to women. You have clearly joined MN to express this opinion - perhaps you're a die-hard Ched fan, I dunno.

oh we had the PA smilies yesterday too

it's just a discussion on a website about the lived experiences of women and their bodily integrity

so not important at all

Ah I see

To some of us talking about these scenarios may be "just a discussion on a website"

To others of us, it is talking about things which have impacted on their lives and the lives of their friends and loved ones and thinking how can we even begin to tackle this when seemingly large swathes of the british public think it is A-OK to rape drunk women.

Different starting point, isn't it.

It'd not just a "discussion on a website" when women are sharing experiences of unwanted sex (is there a better name for that?!) that have caused them unhappiness and misery.

Sabrina,

I take on board what you say - but I see many of the alternate opinions being express as being quite damaging to women!

I'm not sure why you think disagreeing with you means I would be a 'fan' of a Ched Evans, it's a bit of a non sequitur if you don't mind me saying!

It is still a discussion on a website - sorry if the word 'just' offended anyone!

If there is a list of approve opinions I would be happy to read it before posting again (genuinely!)

Smilies not PA - just don't want to look angry!

Er...Because this thread has arisen because of Ched Evans?

but I see many of the alternate opinions being express as being quite damaging to women!

Can you explain how? All the opposing posts to yours are objecting to women being bullied into sex, being harassed or abused into "consenting" (it's ok your honour, she said yes), or the onus being on men to ensure consent. How is that damaging to women outside of a Mills & Boon fiction ?