Prostitutes - Are Women in Denial About Who Uses Them?

[CKDexterHaven]

I've seen some threads on Mumsnet where a woman is concerned about her husband or partner going on an all-male trip to Thailand or Las Vegas or Prague or Amsterdam. As soon as someone raises the issue of prostitution they are shouted down and told they are jumping to conclusions. Is the issue of nice, middle-class husbands using prostitutes something to which women are willingly blind?

There are millions of prostituted women and girls in the world, and, of course, men and boys too. The slow advancements in women's lives in the developed world mean that women in their thousands are trafficked from East to Western Europe, from South to North America, from Africa to Southern Europe and from Asia to Australia and the rest of the world just to meet demand. It stands to reason that there must be a lot more clients than prostitutes. The ratio must be akin to hairdressers and their clients. So where are the men? And who are they?

I've read interviews with exited prostitutes who say most of their clients were 'normal', often married, middle-class men. I've heard prostitutes say the best time to work is not a Friday or Saturday night but first thing on a Monday morning when mid-life crisis guys who hate their jobs treat themselves before going back to work. But in my lifetime I've only ever met two men who've admitted to using prostitutes. One was very drunk and bragged to his friends, the other one was an 'edgy' mature student who thought it wasn't exploitative because the prostitute was older than him and, therefore, somehow in control of the situation. That's it, two men.

When I was growing up in the 80s and early 90s porn was sold in dodgy shops, stripping happened in sleazy men's clubs and prostitution was virtually invisible to anyone who didn't live in a red-light area. Even the most handmaideny of handmaidens I knew felt these things were degrading to men and women. Now that porn is a click away and lap-dancing clubs are in every town centre most women seem to have redefined these things as 'empowering' rather than confront the fact that men they know enjoy dehumanising women who need money. Prostitution is also a lot more visible and, although this has been redefined as an empowering career choice for women, women still seem sensitive to the idea of men they know using prostitutes. Why is this? Is it just the question of tangible cheating or are women not as ok with 'sex work' for women as they say they are?

OP I think what you are saying is along the lines of the male apologist/victim blaming that goes on. Men have needs, they need to let out their frustration, pent up anger, testosterone blah de blah, but bad things don't happen to nice girls. The underlying theme is that men do have a dark side that we should be wary of so we better be 'good.'

I've seen threads like you mention, Amsterdam is a big one, very few MN husbands go for the weed or sex industry. They're the groups of men cluttering up the Rijksmuseum because why else would they go?

Saying people only go to Amsterdam for the sex and drugs is a bit like saying people only go to Paris to visit Disneyland.

I went to Dublin once and didn't drink Guinness.

Ah, yes, sorry. I see what you mean now.

Anyone who does not think that the lure of places like Amsterdam, especially for groups of men on their own, isn't the sex and drugs is fucking deluded. Other places popular amongst stag groups include Prague and Tallinn, I don't know what came first but both those cities now have serious amounts of prostitution, lots of men either went for the prostitution or created the demand that caused it. It is not difficult to figure it out.

Yeah, odd how few stag nights happen in Oslo or Stockholm isn't it. You know, if they go for the culture and to experience new cultures and shit.

Well, I can only speak for my own dh and his University friends. They meet up every year for a jolly, they live all over so the venue varies. Amsterdam has featured twice.

I can't know 100% that they're not off for a week of exploiting women and getting stoned but I'd bet my last pound on it. The last Amsterdam trip was five days of beer, museums and cycling. I'm fairly sure dh didn't trip and fall into a prostitutes vagina but I will just double check with him.

I'm sure plenty of men do go for the red light districts but it is pretty offensive to Amsterdam itself to say it's the only reason anyone would ever go.

To be fair, I think that the associated tackiness lends itself to stag (and to some extent hen) weekends, much as Blackpool does, rather than, say, Bath. There are deals on, and targeted marketing, but although a visit to a hash cafe and a walk round the red light district are pretty much par for the course, I still don't think most blokes who go actually sleep with a sex worker/prostituted woman. No vested interest personally, btw, but that's my impression from acquaintances.

I get what you are saying OP.

Obviously, if a woman is vocal about her thoughts on men that pay women for sex, then any man she might discuss the issue with, is not going to admit to it is he? [bar the sort of man that would delight in shocking] particularly if that man is persuing a relationship with that woman.

I would guess that the majority of men that use prosititutes, do so in a clandestine way.

I think that there quite probably are some women, for whom such a thing would be a 'deal breaker', that choose not to ask, as they don't wish to know the truth. I don't think that makes it their fault, or mean that they are complicit as such, but yes, I would agree that some women are in denial about the possibility of the men in their lives using prostitutes.

Those men are easily cut out of one's life, and tbh, citing "but it's a male dominated workplace" is just another appeasement. Sorry, Nicki

That sounds a bit 'victim blamey', or at least making Nicki responsible in some way for the attitudes of her colleagues/former colleagues.

Blaming women for what men do seems to be an issue on all sides of the fence it would seem.

I am a prostitute. I have seen men aged 20-68 in many different professions, bin men to lawyers. Yes most are married and don't even hide the fact and I'd say they were pretty normal and just see paying for sex as a 'hobby', something which is harmless and a bit of fun.

It's so easy to contact escorts/prostitutes, especially with the Internet on everyone's smart phone. And most people I see have taken an extended lunch break or are on their way home, so their other half's are none the wiser.

I don't think it's exploitative as long as the woman is choosing to do it freely and is happy working in the industry. I think you'll never ever end prostitution, it's been around for too long.

I'm not saying that it is the only reason anyone goes, I am talking about groups of men on their own. The vast majority (not all, I feel compelled to point that out before someone decides majority to mean everyone everywhere) of lads group holidays follow one of two formats, they are focused round an activity or destinations known for cheap booze and cheap women. Not all men on such a trip will go in for such activities but the majority will have gone for that purpose.

Simple fact is stag parties/lads holidays dominate in areas with high levels of prostitution. Either they go for it or they create the demand that brings it. Prostitution is a business, no demand it would not be there.

I've family who live in Amsterdam, they agree with me, it is a beautiful city but huge numbers of tourists are not going for the scenery and museums. They are there for the drugs and sex and it is a blot on the city.

migsy - don't you feel selfish, perpetuating an industry you are happy in, that damages other women?

So selfish.

How do you know it damages other women?

Selfish, no. I do this to feed/clothe myself and my child. It's a job, like any other. So no i don't feel selfish at all.

Will you encourage you child to follow in your footsteps mighty? If not encourage them would you support them if that is what they chose?

migsy not mighty gosh darned autocorrect.

I've heard from them.

Look up Rachel Moran. If only one woman has gone through what she has (!), it's not worth it.

She was forced into this the same as you - but she doesn't defend it. You claimed that it was ok so long as women were 'happy'. Now you say for you it was necessity.

Which is true?

And if it's that you're happy, then how do you stack that up against the suffering other women are going through?

I get what you are saying op too

Of course it is hard for us to face that nice guys we know could do something that we find and thought they were disgusted by

Of course not every group often that are off to Amsterdam or Prague are going to be involved but many many are and it is likely that some of those are nice guys we know the industry is thriving. Saying well know one i know would is separating bad men from good men but yet some men with think are good do

I think rather than thinking only vile/repulse men who hate women use prostitutes we should accept that men do some will be our nice friends and so on. That does not mean you can not trust partners but by putting those that do in a category it puts up a shield that protects the nice men who would not possibly do this but of course many are, some maybe it is a one off on a stag do but they do because we live in a society where it is so ingrained that men have to have sex and because of that need women are happy to exchange money for that service this needs to be challenged by us all

Being trafficked and abused is a completely different issue to consensual prostitution, and there is a lot of doubt surrounding Moran's story.

It's a necessity yes, just like any other way of earning money is. I don't know how I'd feel about my child doing this but I do know that it's not all doom and gloom like you make it out to be.

I don't see why women are being selfish if they choose to be prostitutes. It's a different thing altogether when women are forced or coerced into it. I can't see that it will ever end completely. And what about male escorts. I know there are as many of them but they do exist.

Oh, 'a lot of doubt', is there?

You mean you don't believe an abused woman?

Sorry, but MN backs 'We Believe You'. I've met her. She is telling the truth.

If you claim you're ok with it, you are saying you're not suffering what she has, but somehow you think it's ok to insist your choice matters more than her suffering.

That's inexcusable and selfish.

viv - not what I said.

Women aren't being selfish to make a difficult choice.

Anyone who say, as this poster does, that they doubt the story of a survivor of prostitution, or they place their lack of suffering as more important than someone else's suffering, is selfish, though.

It's basic, isn't it? If you are happy to do something, and someone else has been raped and abused doing it, you don't get to stamp all over their experience by saying you were happy so it's ok for them to be abused.

Unless you are willing to live my life for me and pay my bills then I will always support my choices. There are many women doing this job, do you expect us all to go on benefits? Or just get another job?

I think you are jumping to a lot of conclusions just based on a few comments that I've made.

Seven: "A company a friend worked at held a sales people well done type even where there were prostitutes on tap. She sent me a link. It wasn't in the UK, but was the same company. the prostitutes had arm-bands with classifications and the sales people could only use ones up to a certain arm-band level."

Was the company Munich Re?

And I never said it's ok for anyone to be abused!

But are you willing to live the life of those abused women?

Bollocks am I jumping to conclusions.

I support women who tell me what they were forced into - not women who tell me about their 'choice' and insist those 'choices' and 'happy' experiences should make it ok for others to be raped.